forums energies: society, ecology and clean technologies

I finally managed to get my hands on some numbers (secret defense apparently because I have never managed to find public sources from 2000!) the environmental impact of making a car!

Well it's taken from BMW mag (sorry Flytox!) And therefore it's not necessarily "impartial" but at least it gives an idea.

So here are the few figures that are given (analyzes below):

- CO2: in 10 years, the CO2 by car manufactured by the BM group has dropped from 28% to 0.84 Tonnes of CO2 / car

- Electricity: in 10 years, power consumption has dropped from 26% to 2780 kWh / car

- Volatile Organic Compounds (paints, surface treatment ...): 37% reduction: 2.36 kg VOC / car (also include PAHs) http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbu ... lycyclique

- Water: in 10 years, almost 50% reduction to 640 L per car.

What should we retain from these figures valid for 2008-2009? (attention valid for BM on average and according to "their source", can vary greatly depending on the production site to be confirmed via other sources therefore)?

- Water: 40-50% of the vehicle mass approximately (100% before)

- Electricity: 2780 kWh = 7500 kWh EP about 750 L of oil what to do (6L / 100): 750 / 6 * = 12 500 km (I had in mind 30 40 000km what should be true a moment)

- CO2: 50% of the mass of the vehicle approximately

Nevertheless we see immediately that there is something that does not stick!

Indeed, in Germany (where most BMs are manufactured) the electric kWh emits 0.6 kg of CO2. So 2780 kWh of electricity emit 2780 * 0.6 = 1 668 kg of CO2.

I presume that the CO2 displayed is the one directly rejected by the BM factories (foundry for the most part ...)! We should therefore increase the 1.7 T 0.84 T and so we would fall on about 2.5 tons of CO2 / car manufactured! 2500 kg of CO2 ca represents 140 g / km approximately 18 000 km traveled !!

So change car (scrapping bonus, eco-bonus of my corones ...) under the pretext that it is supposedly an "ecological" gesture will have to prove it to me again!

Here is the report "sustainable development of BM" (a lot of propaganda but it's better than nothing): https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 55DJQS.pdf

BM's "responsible" portal: http://www.bmwgroup.com/responsibility/

A related subject: https://www.econologie.com/forums/voitures-c ... t8710.html

The trick is not how many miles we will travel with this C02, but how many miles will have to go for the difference in consumption between the old and the new car to go positive.
If you get 20 g per km between the 2 cars, you go from 18000 km to 126000 km (7x18000) to go for the fuel economy to cover the CO2 emitted by the production of the vehicle.

Yes of course Océano but it was not the purpose of this calculation! It was just to say that 0.0 km your car had already made the equivalent of 18 000km rejection in CO2 ... Obviously it's an average!

Another member, I do not know who, felt in real case that he had to 180km to "make profitable on CO000" its new car (supposedly "clean in CO2") compared to the old one ...

So CO2 here, CO2 there ... We're really crazy about our mouth but nothing is too little for car manufacturers ...

The CO2 has become especially a marketing argument ... to sell more cars !!

In their calculations of CO2, do they take into account the manufacture of the elements of the car.
Steel made in China and reimported.
Plastics, electronic elements ...

Is it CO2 during manufacturing or total CO2? Because in case, the more one relocates, the more there is transport and therefore more CO2 issued ...

Of all the elements I do not know but the engine yes! Now is every bolt taken into account? I do not know!

Have to search the site that I gave above ... there may be everything we want ...

I do not like to be the devil's advocate but to quote my case, I calculated the actual CO2 emissions of my LPG sedans (I sold one this year) and 90.000km they are 228g / km

Unless you replace your vehicle with a 4x4 or other pickup, it is easy to do better in nine, finally I hope ...

Me, I roll electric now ... it's another debate.

Christophe wrote:- CO2: 50% of the mass of the vehicle approximately

Nevertheless we see immediately that there is something that does not stick!

Indeed, in Germany (where most BMs are manufactured) the electric kWh emits 0.6 kg of CO2. So 2780 kWh of electricity emit 2780 * 0.6 = 1 668 kg of CO2.

I presume that the CO2 displayed is the one directly rejected by the BM factories (foundry for the most part ...)! We should therefore increase the 1.7 T 0.84 T and so we would fall on about 2.5 tons of CO2 / car manufactured! 2500 kg of CO2 ca represents 140 g / km approximately 18 000 km traveled !!

Here is the report "sustainable development of BM" (a lot of propaganda but it's better than nothing): https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 55DJQS.pdf

BM's "responsible" portal: http://www.bmwgroup.com/responsibility/

A related subject: https://www.econologie.com/forums/voitures-c ... t8710.html

that's a good subject.

I think you can count a CO2 show equivalent to the mass of the car.

So change car (scrapping bonus, eco-bonus of my corones ...) under the pretext that it is supposedly an "ecological" gesture will have to prove it to me again!

It's very clear. I see that with my titbit R19 1995, I do 5,5L / 100 km.

1L / 100 is about 23g of CO2 / km

Even if a BMW 1 series of 1500 kg well-driven petrol can do 5L / 100, you have to ride 1 500 000 / (23x (5.5-5) = 130 500 km to compensate for the gray energy of the new car.

Christophe wrote:I finally managed to get my hands on some numbers (secret defense apparently because I have never managed to find public sources from 2000!) the environmental impact of making a car!

Christophe, that's what friend Jancovici says,

If we consider that the emissions to make an electric car are of the same order of magnitude as for a petrol car, ie 1,5 tonne carbon equivalent (5,4 tons CO2 equivalent) per tonne of produced car, and that a vehicle will make on average 200.000 km during its life, then each km traveled in an electric vehicle generates around 40 “incompressible” grams of CO2. From now on, we are no longer totally clean!

http://www.manicore.com/documentation/voit_elect.html
It does not detail more the calculation, but in principle, the balance sheets CO2, it is his job.

By the way, his article reworked on the electric car is not bad at all (as usual) )

Very interesting, these elements. And like Citro, my personal grain of salt:

1) We can do much better than "scraping" 20 g of CO² / km. I am scrapping my Xantia Turbodiesel (not HDI). I do not have its characteristics. I estimate it at 160 g / km. I replace it with a C1 GPL (those who read me will end up with the knowledge!). I go to 95 g / km.

2) Let's stop thinking only about CO² (and suddenly playing the media game). There are plenty of other pollutants. I reduce my particulate emissions much more (my old Xantia was starting to "smoke" - when I say "starting", to put it mildly - even with a light foot). We are just starting to discover the harmfulness of PM !!! My C1 GPL does not emit any more.

Same for the CO (divided by 10). And NOx (reduced by a third, I believe) ...

So let's stop counting CO² alone (it's still the least human-health thing, let's know it).

I continue to be scandalized that this site is doing somewhere, without necessarily wanting to, the apology for "old gourds". This does not mean that the debate on "gray emissions" linked to the manufacture of new cars should be avoided. There is somewhere an inflection point; the elements given above, allow to locate it a little.

Yes, replacing an "old" car with a newer one is not always "environmentally friendly" - if the old one is not "environmentally depreciated"; no, driving with squash, on the grounds that the manufacture of a new car pollutes, is not justifiable by these ecological considerations - when we go beyond 250 / 300 km. As often, a little common sense, moderation and nuance, and the truth is not far!

Hi Did,

What you say is justified for "old gourds", but what is the definition?

For my part, I have a 19L 1,4 fuel injection 1995 R70 (pot cat that I changed following internal desoldering 5.5 Mkm). She passes the CT fingers in the nose every time. She does 100L / XNUMX with eco driving.

I do not see what the new species of really better. And yet, it is an "old" car. It is true that on old Diesel without DPF, that is more debatable.

My mechanic has long wanted to sell me a new one, and I do not blame him, it's his job.

The builders sell us dumpers and I'll say that as long as there will not be a plug-in hybrid at home equivalent gauge of a R19 or ZX less than 30000 € TTC.