Balance well to the wheel of a car: H2, diesel and gasoline

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Christophe
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Balance well to the wheel of a car: H2, diesel and gasoline




by Christophe » 09/09/08, 15:06

What is the overall cost "from well to wheel" and the cost of a propulsion mode: gasoline, diesel, hybrid or fuel cell?

Image

Source: IFP from "Well-to-Wheels analysis of future automotive fuels and powertrains in the European context", EUCAR, JRC, CONCAWE, November 2003

This table is very instructive but the 2nd column deserves to be converted into an energy unit to estimate the gray energy cost of hydrogen.

IBOs to start:
Petrol: 32MJ / L
Diesel: 35MJ / L
H2: 120MJ / kg

Found on: http://www.enpc.fr/fr/formations/ecole_ ... ene/H2.htm
Last edited by Christophe the 05 / 10 / 10, 15: 43, 4 edited once.
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by Leo Maximus » 09/09/08, 21:38

I see: MCI Hybrid + diesel. What car is it ?
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by Woodcutter » 09/09/08, 21:52

In my opinion, estimated costs in 2003 are no longer relevant in this area now ...
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by Christophe » 09/09/08, 22:09

Leo Maximus wrote:I see: MCI Hybrid + diesel. What car is it ?


Diesel internal combustion engine (it does not exist on the market, I can assure you !!)


Bucheron, why is this no longer relevant?

a) the H2 production costs have not changed
b) the cost of oil actually moved a little (a correction would be easy to make)
c) CAP yields have probably evolved but not so dramatically

It's up to us to update all of this, right? :)
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by Leo Maximus » 09/09/08, 22:19

Christophe wrote:
Leo Maximus wrote:I see: MCI Hybrid + diesel. What car is it ?


Diesel internal combustion engine (it does not exist on the market, I can assure you !!)


Bucheron, why is this no longer relevant?

a) the H2 production costs have not changed
b) the cost of oil actually moved a little (a correction would be easy to make)
c) CAP yields have probably evolved but not so dramatically

It's up to us to update all of this, right? :)

Bizzare anyway, put data on a hybrid car that does not exist and ignore the data of hybrid cars that exist (at the time there was the Prius 1, the Honda Insight) :?:

NB: in the update, we must not forget Guy Nègre's compressed air car. : Lol:
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by Christophe » 09/09/08, 22:25

Well, you have to ask the IFP ... it's not really the friends of econology generally ...:D

It is undoubtedly that the petrol hybrid is less interesting than the diesel hybrid.

There were already diesel hybrid prototypes in 2003 ...

NB: ok you take care of the balance sheet? 8)
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by Leo Maximus » 10/09/08, 08:46

Christophe wrote:Well, you have to ask the IFP ... it's not really the friends of econology generally ...:D

It is undoubtedly that the petrol hybrid is less interesting than the diesel hybrid.

There were already diesel hybrid prototypes in 2003 ...

NB: ok you take care of the balance sheet? 8)

Okay ! In August, I noted the costs of inflation in scuba diving clubs. You can inflate in air to 300 bars 8)

The price per cubic meter is 2,5 euros, with a bottle containing 90 m3 it is 90 * 2,5 euros or 225 euros "full". I find it quite expensive ... : Cry: You can get prizes if you are part of the club. 8)

It seems that refueling can be done in 2 minutes for 2 euros but I don't know where. :?: I might be hard pressed to find ... : Cry:
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by Christophe » 10/09/08, 09:27

It was a joke the NB

In addition I do not think that the cost of the diving club is significant of the real cost of pumping: it is undoubtedly a small structure which must make profitable its material. In addition, passion and cheapness rarely go well together if you know what I mean ...

If you want to have fun put a PM230 on the compressor during a charge but don't go back:

Compressed air accounts for 10 to 15% of the electricity bill for businesses in Europe.

The share of energy consumption in the total ACO generation budget varies between 60 to 90%. The efficiency of an ACO installation rarely exceeds 10%.
(attention 10% is the complete output: compression, storage and use)

Source: http://energie.wallonie.be/xml/doc-IDC- ... 0400-.html
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by Woodcutter » 10/09/08, 12:41

Christophe wrote:[...] Bucheron in what it is not current any more?

a) the H2 production costs have not changed
b) the cost of oil actually moved a little (a correction would be easy to make)
c) CAP yields have probably evolved but not so dramatically

It's up to us to update all of this, right? :)
The cost of producing H2, I do not know it, but I imagined that the work of many firms in this field participated in bringing it down, right?

Oil has moved a lot since 2003, and fuels with it.

There is a generation of difference, see 2 with PACs and I think that too can make the difference ...
Honda announces a return passed from 55 to 60% between 2005 and 2008 for its PAC. What about in comparison to 2003?

So indeed, urgently update if we want it to make sense ...
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by I Citro » 02/10/10, 14:14

I dig up this subject because a student asks me for elements of energy comparison for the transport of the future.

I told him about the scam which consists in declaring:
- tank-to-wheel emissions for petroleum vehicles
- well to wheel emissions for electric vehicles
history of sealing the electric vehicle whose emissions from the tank to the wheel are non-existent.

I am unsuccessfully looking for a synthetic table illustrating my point, namely; what is the amount of energy consumed or the well to tank emissions of our petroleum vehicles.
I have been told that for a liter of gasoline poured into a tank there is the equivalent of 2 liters of gasoline that was consumed for extraction, transportation, refining and final delivery, some one would he have in stock confirmation of this ratio.
:?:
I do not think that the media coverage of this info would please automakers and oil companies ... Imagine that tomorrow they are forced to multiply by 3 the emissions of their vehicles so that their figures are comparable with those of electric vehicles ...

It's true, what! Before an electric vehicle has traveled its first kilometer, the pollution released to fill its tank is announced, but we refrain from making the same calculation for petrol vehicles!: Evil:


The same source told me that if we made "our cars run on coal" (French), considered as the most polluting energy, the overall balance would be much "clean" than oil.

The same thinking prevails for solar, hydrogen and why not compressed air ...
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