Hydrogen: pumping station at home by Honda!

[Christophe]

The Honda Home Energy Station: individual hydrogen synthesis and pumping station.



Taken and translated from the official FCX Clarity website: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarit ... ation.aspx

The supply of hydrogen is a problem in the development of heat pumps. Honda has an innovative approach to this: develop a pumping station at home: "The Home Energy Station".

Honda already had experience in cogeneration and in individual electric and natural gas charging stations.

The Home Energy Station

Honda launched the experiment in California since 2003. The station generates hydrogen from natural gas from cogeneration which will also produce heat and electricity for the home.

In 2007, version 4 of the station was developed: better integrated into the house and more efficient. Thus CO2 emissions would be reduced by 30% compared to the use of a gasoline vehicle and electric heating (er, is that all? Because electric heating with coal ...).

Nothing is said about the cost of the solution.

[Woodcutter]

They should manage, at least in part, to make H2 without going through the GN ...
It must be possible with such a PV area, right?

[Christophe]

Well imagine that we all think of that when we see the image ... but in the end it is a stupid cogeneration ...

I would have hoped that it was a reforming of natural gas (which undoubtedly has a better yield than a cogenerator + electrolyser) ...

For me on-board reforming remains the best solution, especially that a few months (years) ago a model managed to make H2 from ethanol: therefore the very first hydrogen of renewable origin (without counting the H1 solar from Perrier but that's another story ...).

[Woodcutter]

[...] I would have hoped that it was about reforming natural gas (which undoubtedly has a better output than a cogenerator + electrolyser) ...

But with GN, there remains the problem of CO2 ...
The yield we don't care a bit, as long as the installation is sufficient to produce, I don't know ... go 1 kg of hydrogen per day ...

Reforming on board from renewable sources?
Pouted ... why not, but is the advantage compared to a series hybrid to alcohol clear? Not sure at all ...

[Christophe]

The yield we don't care a bit, as long as the installation is sufficient to produce, I don't know ... go 1 kg of hydrogen per day ...

Easy chef!

1) With photovoltaic panels and electrolyser solution

Just for electrolysis powered by photovoltaic panels:

1kg = 120 MJ. Standard electrolysis efficiency = 20% (may be slightly higher but good, it's for 1 order of magnitude: https://www.econologie.com/telechargemen ... frequence/ )
So you need 120 / 0.2 =600 MJ of electricity per day, i.e. 166 kWh per DAY or even 60kWH per year to supply the electrolyser!

A trifle !! 1 m² of panel in Alsace receives 1200 kWh of "gross" radiation per year ... let's consider PV panels with 20% yield, each m² of PV will therefore produce 1200 * 0.2 = 240 kWh per year and therefore 60 / 000 = 240 m² !!!

It would therefore take 250m² of PV panel to create 1kg of H2 per day ... you quickly understand that this is a joke and that the combination of electrolysis + PV is a sweet dream ... unless the price of PV cells is divided by 100 ...

Why is it so ridiculous? Simply because we multiply 2 low yield: PV (20%) and electrolysis (20% also) ...

2) Perrier solar thermolysis

By cons made of H2 by thermolysis, i.e. direct cracking, hoping for a 40% yield (what Perrier had tried to do at the end) it would only take 120 / 0.4 = 300 MJ or 3,6 = 83 kWh per day or 30000 kWH per year and ... 25m² would be enough in Alsace to make 1kg of H2 per day! It is 10 times less than PV and, it is possible in a house! We find this coefficient of 10 by making the yield ratio: 40% / (20% * 20%) = 0.4 / (0.2 * 0.2) = 10

We understand better pkoi Perrier's research generated a lot !!... good after you have to count compression and storage which is nothing else

Reforming on board from renewable sources?
Pouted ... why not, but is the advantage compared to a series hybrid to alcohol clear? Not sure at all ...

Maybe not, but I was talking about fuel cell technology ...

[Christophe]

I reshaped the calculations from last night

[Woodcutter]

Thank you for the calculations, indeed, it is not yet won ...

[...]

Reforming on board from renewable sources?
Pouted ... why not, but is the advantage compared to a series hybrid to alcohol clear? Not sure at all ...

Maybe not, but I was talking about fuel cell technology ...

Well for me the "PàC" optic is only justified if it is better than a thermal intermediate technology, if we start from the same sources ...
Perhaps the PAC can still make progress in yield?

[Christophe]

Well nothing to say except +1 ... But PAC to H2 is still the worst solution ...

[Capt_Maloche]

1kg = 120 MJ. Efficiency electrolysis standard = 20% (can be slightly higher but good it is for 1 order of magnitude: https://www.econologie.com/telechargemen ... frequence/

But PAC à H2 is still the worst solution ...

What's your name?
The CO2 CAP seems to be a good solution, with exceptional COPs announced

In the case of DC power electrolysis, when the applied voltage is increased, the current increases so that hydrogen generation rate increases, but the efficiency compared with the ideal generation rate decreases from 40% at 2.2 V to 8% at 12.6 V.

It is not the first time that you put forward these figures ...
20% seems super low to me !! 40% too
what losses are we talking about?

Joule effect losses, limited to 2.2V
and what else? that apart from heat losses only 20% of the current is effective? WHY?

I do not understand how are the 80% non-thermal losses of which you are talking about manifested?

[Capt_Maloche]

I disagree: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyse_de_l%27eau

The energy efficiency of water electrolysis can vary significantly. The efficiency range varies between 50-70% [1], while others indicate 80-94% [2]. These values ​​refer only to the efficiency of the conversion of electrical energy into chemical energy of hydrogen. Energy lost during electricity generation is not counted

Hey, I was talking about "improved electrolysis"

High temperature electrolysis.
High temperature electrolysis (also known by the acronym HTE - high-temperature electrolysis) is a method that is currently being studied for the electrolysis of water by a thermal machine. Electrolysis at high temperature is more efficient than the process at room temperature since part of the energy necessary for the reaction is supplied via heat, which is cheaper to obtain than electricity, and that the electrolysis reactions have better performance at high temperatures