Roll with cheaper natural gas

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jean63
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Roll with cheaper natural gas




by jean63 » 13/01/08, 11:23

Roll with cheaper natural gas

Camille Peyrache

13 / 11 / 2007 | Updated: 10: 52 |

Running on natural gas with a personal mini-station is 50% cheaper than unleaded.

Tax credit and fuel cost half the price of gasoline, running on natural gas is interesting for the wallet and the environment.
Far from being a new energy, natural gas as fuel is yet little known in France. In our Italian neighbors, he already equips 400 000 vehicles, including many private individuals. Some car manufacturers have followed the trend and already offer dual-fuel vehicles (gas / gas) with a range of about 800 km, 200 to 500 km gas and the rest to gasoline. The models are numerous: from the small city car, Citroën C3 or Fiat Punto, to the Fiat Multipla minivan or the Opel Zaphira through the utilities, Citroën Berling or the Renault Kangoo. The only drawback of natural gas lies in the still small number of filling stations. That's why Gaz de France is proposing an original initiative, refueling with natural gas at home, thanks to an individual mini-station installed in a garage or driveway.



Half the price


Billed 0,58 cents the m3, which corresponds to a liter of gasoline, natural gas is then 50% cheaper than the unleaded. To benefit from it, it is necessary to add to the costs of the fuel, the installation of the mini-station, invoiced on average 800 euros, and the rent of the compressor, 29 € / month for a fixed price of 500m3 of gas / year is 8000 km / year.

Tax credit

Because natural gas emits 25% less CO2 than petroleum fuels and no sulfur oxide or lead, the public authorities have set up a tax credit of 2000 euros for the purchase of a new car with natural gas. Bonus to which, an individual can add 1000 euros if he takes over a vehicle over 10 years.

source: http://www.lefigaro.fr/conso/2007/11/09 ... aturel.php

Our neighbors had already done the same thing with the LPG: a lot ahead of us, they seem to go to the GNV.

It is very clean and little emission of CO2. I know that this is not a panacea because of the basement, but to see what is currently proposed, I wonder if this is not a solution for a few years while waiting better.

The problem is that in France we preferred the E85 instead of putting pumps CNG.

The fact of making bi-fuel vehicles is a good idea as well as the personal station. I could equip myself because I have nat gas at home.

So: 2000 premium euros + 1000 euros recovery of my vehicle + 10 years, it's already not bad (3000 euros saved on the purchase! 20000 frans it's top).

Then the gas 0,58 euros / liters is not expensive. The problem is the autonomy 200 500 km and then we switch to gasoline. The title is FALSE because it should run at 100% gas to save 50% on fuel. And then there is the price of the resort and the monthly subscription, but with 3000 euros discount on the purchase one can see coming. To stay French, the C3 is not bad, or Kangoo to have more space but I do not like aesthetics; but I do not know where we are GNV stations in France.

Decidedly, I'm having a hard time getting rid of my R25 LPG because with the tank of 80 liters in the trunk, I do 650 km LPG, so I never run on gasoline. I pay LPG 0,75 to 0,80 / liter in my area but I consume 10l / 100; I guess it's less with a small car with CNG.

It consumes surely much more than a C3 but level livability nothing to see.
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Re: Roll with cheaper natural gas




by moinsdewatt » 10/08/12, 18:15

The 1ère station of the CNG network of Bordeaux inaugurated

The merger on French territory of GNVERT and Gaz de Bordeaux constitutes an unprecedented development model which should make it possible to ensure the promotion of Green Natural Gas, a fuel considered "economical and more respectful of the environment".


Image

As the first link in the future network, the Quai de la Souys CNG station welcomes the communities of the Bordeaux agglomeration and the companies that have made and will choose CNG to supply their fleet of vehicles. Multi-users, the station is also open to individuals with a CNG vehicle.

It has two distribution tracks and is accessible to light, utility and heavy goods vehicles.

"This NGV station is the starting point of a real network in the Bordeaux region, built on a local development model already in place in Germany and Italy, but still underdeveloped in France. In particular, this network represents a very good response. relevant for companies and local authorities wishing to operate their vehicle fleets with a responsible solution that respects the environment, "said Eric Manzano, CEO of Gaz de Bordeaux.

"For companies, the economic and ecological advantages of NGV provide an appropriate response to regulatory constraints linked to the environment: European standards, the issue of the clean last mile and very recently, the creation of Priority Action Zones for Air" , explained for her part Karine Vernier, president of GNVERT. "CNG is perfectly suited to transporting goods in urban areas, with an average range of around 300 km between refueling."

The CNG fuel has many advantages. It emits no particles (often responsible for respiratory diseases in urban areas), reduces nitrogen oxide emissions by 80%, halves engine noise and reduces vibration, which causes discomfort and fatigue for drivers.

GNV would also achieve up to 20% savings compared to conventional fuels. In addition, there are incentives and tax benefits for users of NGV vehicles (ADEME assistance, exemption of the Vehicle Tax of Companies, etc.).


Some principles of use:

- A full is done in 2 at 5 minutes
- The autonomy of the vehicles are between 300 and 500 km in CNG
- Up to 20% savings compared to conventional fuels


Ecological performance

- 80% reduction of nitrous oxide (NOx) emissions
- 50% reduction of noise pollution
- 25% reduction of CO2 emissions compared to a petrol engine and 5% compared to diesel
- Odorless fuel
- No black smoke emission


http://www.enerzine.com/12/12256+la-1er ... uree+.html
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Re: Roll with cheaper natural gas




by moinsdewatt » 10/08/12, 18:16

15 million gas-powered vehicles worldwide including 2.86 millions in Iran and as much in Pakistan.

2011 Natural Gas Vehicle Statistics Published

May 17, 2012

Data as at Dec 31 2011

15 million natural gas vehicles operating around the world

Almost 20,000 natural gas fueling stations

Sales for 2011 exceed projections

We have not yet published the news as well as statistics on the subject of 2011 NGV statistics data page.
The stats show more than 15 million natural gas vehicles running around the world.

Currently being lagged behind projections made in 2006, 2011 (2.576 million actual vs 2.495 million projected) is a slight closing of the gap. The increase was more than 2010 (1.249 million), showing a strong recovery from the slump caused by global financial conditions.

Data is collected from a variety of industry sources and should be taken into account only.

Figures show that Iran now has the highest number of natural gas vehicles, with 2.859 million on the road, just ahead of Pakistan at 2.85 million.


http://www.iangv.org/2012/05/2011-natur ... -released/
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by Did67 » 11/08/12, 16:43

For information, the tax credit "conversion to gas" has been abolished in France. Ditto for LPG.

About 3 500 euros including the equipment of a vehicle. Hard to damp, except for very greedy vehicles.

The announced - 20% is in relation to the fuel cost or after depreciation?

For LPG, it is necessary to add about 20% of consumption compared to gasoline. The price per liter is around 0,85 euros, or "equivalent" to about 1,10 euros per liter of gasoline.
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by chatelot16 » 11/08/12, 20:13

the weight of a fuel tank is negligible compared to the weight of gasoline that is put in

with the lpg the tank is exactly the same weight as the LPG: it doubles the total weight! this weight dragging is very harmful to consomation!

with natural gas it's even worse! the tank is 10 times heavier than the gas that is put in it: big useless weight to drag for a weak autonomy ... problem of safety of the pressurized tanks ... and worse than real problem of security obligatory control price of the apave

there may be solutions by doing the checks in countries less worse than France

the only interest of methane fuel is to do it completely as a pirate without showing anything

other detail, the energy of compression of methane is not negligible at all! it would be interesting to do the detente in the vehicle not by a stupid regulator but by a small engine with compressed air ... this kind of engine works bad because of the cold produced by this relaxation, but as it is to feed a combustion engine that is heat, it is very easy to warm up the engine that relaxes the methane, it is possible to gain about 1 / 4 the power of the engine explosion at the beginning of the relaxation when the tank is a 200 bar
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by Did67 » 12/08/12, 11:26

chatelot16 wrote:with the lpg the tank is exactly the same weight as the LPG: it doubles the total weight! this weight dragging is very harmful to consomation!


It is true.

At the same time, I do not think it's an argument: about thirty kilos (I'm not sure that my toric tank is so heavy), even for my little C1 who must weigh in 800 kg, me, my 80 kg ... that's something negligible ...

Even if it is true, it does not, in any case, make an argument against the LPG, in terms of the price of LPG (operating cost) or pollution gains (NOx, CO and particulate matter in particular) .

And the diesel engine also hits the weight of cars!

C1 empty petrol = 840 kg (5 doors)
C1 Diesel empty = 890 kg (5 doors)

It's even worse!
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by I Citro » 12/08/12, 13:03

:P Funny that a subject of 2008 rises to the surface. The station in photo and on my commune.
I did some calculations a few years ago ... They ended in the result that the GNV was not profitable ... compared to LPG and even more compared to Diesel.
The economic situation has changed, but I do not think it changes much considering the evolution of the price of gas in Bordeaux ...
As more, the choice of this fuel makes you captive of a single supplier, it makes me tense a lot (although with my electric vehicles it is also the case).

The emergence or rather the return of this fuel to Bordeaux, formerly distributed by ELF Aquitaine (from the end of the 60s to the beginning of the 80s) is the combined work of Gaz de Bordeaux and certain "green" local elected officials. and anti-nuclear.
I have not been able to accurately determine the energy cost of electricity to compress GNV to more than 200 Bar, but it should be close enough to power to charge an electric vehicle ...

Compressing the CNG does not improve the performance of the vehicle (quite the contrary) but just allows the fuel (of fossil origin) to be housed in an "acceptable" volume ...

It seems that some antinuclear activists are anti electric car because they make the amalgam:
electric vehicle = nuclear vehicle (While EV is a way out of nuclear power)
These idiots (some of whom are university professors) are not bothered by using fossil energy to move it around and compressing it with electricity ...
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Re: Roll with cheaper natural gas




by chatelot16 » 12/08/12, 14:23

moinsdewatt wrote:15 million gas-powered vehicles worldwide including 2.86 millions in Iran and as much in Pakistan.


methane is more complicated to transport than oil: that explains that some oil producing country which has a little methane with prefere consomer the methane in their vehicle and sell the petrol

when there was a vehicle methane bordeau it was also to consume the methane produced locally has lacq

in France a big handicap of the compressed methane it is the price of the tanks has 200bar and especially the price of the compulsory controls ... it is certainly simpler in certain countries
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by I Citro » 13/08/12, 11:14

chatelot16 wrote:methane is more complicated to transport than petroleum ...
when there were methane vehicles in Bordeaux it was also to consume methane produced locally in Lacq.

In France a big handicap of the compressed methane is the price of the tanks at 200bar and especially the price of the compulsory controls ... it is certainly simpler in certain countries
Indeed, however, there were equipped vehicles well north of Bordeaux. Some companies had 1 or several equipped vehicles and a tanker truck came to supply all 8 or 15 days in the Charentaise countryside ...
:P
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by chatelot16 » 13/08/12, 12:11

when i arrived at angouleme there was a methane sales point, i had a chat with the salesman: there was no compressor, just one or 2 semi trailers with a heap of tank ... to keep a maximum pressure available, the seller started filling with the bottle already at low pressure and finished filling with a full bottle

some day there was more bottle full and the station was therefore unable to refuel full

the seller complained of French regulations prohibiting the use of a compressor
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