Project: realization of a test bench 2CV pantone engine

[guillaume_jd]

Hello everybody

Student in an engineering school, a friend and I want to realize for project (tutored project realized at the end of fourth year), a test bench for a modified 2CV Citroën engine. The pantone system would be added to this engine. The objective being to carry out a multitude of measurements in order to first confirm or deny the various physical, thermal and chemical phenomena which operate within the endothermic reactor and in a second step to collect the information necessary to carry out the new torque curves. and power then compare them to the curves of a standard engine and thus highlight the advantages of water doping.

For that, we wish to realize the various organs of the pantone engine with the maximum of information possible and thus find the best possible adaptation for this engine. We encounter difficulties in preparing our bibliography because we find in our research a little of everything and it is difficult to choose with conviction. In addition, we want above all to understand all the physical, thermal and chemical phenomena. Again, opinions differ. I thank Christophe Martz for his quick response and his first tips to guide our research. We hope by your help to be able to exchange in order to make the best of our test bench and why not provide answers to the questions you ask yourself by our future results.

Edit addition by Christophe, here is the answer I gave him by email:

Hello,

I am Christophe Martz

Bravo for your project, I strongly advise you to present it on the forums: https://www.econologie.com/forums/

You can also read these links including the UTC report on a 2Cv:
https://www.econologie.com/citroen-2cv-a ... -2121.html
https://www.econologie.com/plan-du-moteu ... -3384.html
https://www.econologie.com/moteur-panton ... -1776.html

Regarding the "phenomena" aspect here is the most synthetic article
that I wrote:
Article-econology-autobio-on-doping al-water t9612.html

BMW has just released a water injection:
https://www.econologie.com/injection-d-e ... -4468.html
Analysis of 2 of its patents in detail:
Patent-bmw-on-the-injection-of-water-in-a-motor-t13760.html

If you could share the rest of your (your?) Reflections with the community around forum that would be nice ... that's how we have been able to move forward during these years (open sourcing)

See you soon
Christopher M.

[Flytox]

Hello guillaume_jd, welcome to the club.

Superb project.

I guess the choice of this engine is motivated by its simplicity, low cost and good accessibility. It seems to me that it still has a big drawback. Its battery / coil ignition is not a performance model and this engine would benefit a lot from being modified with electronic ignition ((*) even very simple) before starting, so as to be able to ignite more difficult mixtures than original in all circumstances (since it contains a certain proportion of water). There's no point in making a nice Pantone or Gillier Pantone if you can't test it "properly" without misfires / untimely missfires.

((*) Kind Kit electronic ignition velleman). No actions in this shop despite appearances.

Your test bench, you can describe it to us etc ...

[izentrop]

Good evening Guillaume,
You can consult the studies which have already been carried out https://www.econologie.com/moteur-panton ... -3710.html
Successful studies have shown that a reduction in consumption is accompanied by a loss of engine power. Why yet another study when the process is not worth the effort?

[elephant]

What are you going to put as a charge?

[Flytox]

Good evening Guillaume,
You can consult the studies which have already been carried out https://www.econologie.com/moteur-panton ... -3710.html
Successful studies have shown that a reduction in consumption is accompanied by a loss of engine power.

The phenomenon of loss of power is rather the fact of the "pure" Pantone assembly but not of the Gillier Pantone assembly. It should be noted that the "pure" Pantone is practically not used in cars ... because it is poorly suited to variable engine speeds.

Why yet another study when the process is not worth the effort?

It is not the first time that I wrote this, and that I answer you that if you had actually read / studied the links that you quote, it is not at this conclusion that you will arrive ....

[izentrop]

Hi,
Flytox, I'm talking about studies where the settings have been optimized with or without pantom and corresponding consumption and power measurements have been made seriously on the bench.

[Flytox]

Hi,
Flytox, I'm talking about studies where the settings have been optimized with or without pantom and corresponding consumption and power measurements have been made seriously on bench.

It seems that there are 2 related on econo. The result was not very convincing. From memory it was a power bank " fixed point". We choose a fixed engine speed or absorbed power, we stabilize then we note the parameters, power measurement, consumption etc ... We make a few points and interpolate between the different points to make the curve.

In this configuration it did not appear much different from the original engine. But this test is not at all representative of a real "variable" use as in fact Mr Toulemonde, on the road, in town, mountain etc ... Where the Pantonists saw a difference in consumption, it is for everyday use. What is needed is a bench (admittedly more sophisticated) but capable of reconstructing real cycles "representative" of "everyday" use (especially not consumer approval cycles which are anything but representative ). AMHA is the only way serious to confirm or deny an improvement in consumption on the bench.

Outside a bench, we can do double-blind tests over a significant number of km, etc.

[elephant]

However, (I think it's on Quanthomme) I saw spectacular reports obtained on loaded tractors (plowing regime).

That said, there is certainly interest in knowing the impact of an improvement on the old engines, but they are starting to become more rare.
I suppose that on the new engines, there is still an interest, since BMW got tired of doing it, but there is a lack of "open source" studies.

[izentrop]

However, (I think it's on Quanthomme) I saw spectacular reports obtained on loaded tractors (plowing regime).

Really serious as a reference

The use of water at BMW is only for cooling in extreme conditions, it seems to me.

[Flytox]

However, (I think it's on Quanthomme) I saw spectacular reports obtained on loaded tractors (plowing regime).

Really serious as a reference

The use of water at BMW means only for cooling in extreme conditions, it seems to me.

If you read the entire articles ......

https://www.econologie.com/forums/injection- ... 13753.html

The advantages of water injection can be used in different ways, depending on the engine and vehicle design. The engineers hereby have relatively free rein to decide to what extent they wish to optimize either the performance or the consumption of the power unit.
Potential for systematic use. When a turbo engine whose turbo charger reaches its maximum speed at nominal output is fully charged, additional water injection makes it possible to increase performance and reduce consumption by about eight per cent. At the same time, losses in performance as a result of rising ambient temperatures (> 20 ° C) are also compensated by increasing the amount of water being injected. And finally: instead of more performance, water injection can also be configured to reduce consumption, thus allowing more savings when fully loaded.