Micro-supercapacitors: Capacity x1000

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jean.caissepas
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Micro-supercapacitors: Capacity x1000




by jean.caissepas » 08/10/15, 10:48

Developed over the past ten years, micro-supercapacitors are an attractive alternative to micro-batteries because of their high power and long service life.

But until now, they stored considerably less energy than micro-batteries, which limited their use. However, researchers from the Laboratory for Analysis and Architecture of Systems (LAAS-CNRS) 1, in Toulouse, and INRS2, in Quebec, have just developed an electrode material which allows these electrochemical capacitors to get closer to the results of the batteries, without losing their benefits.


Link : http://www.enerzine.com/14/18754+micro-supercondensateurs---la-capacite-de-stockage-multipliee-par-1000+.html
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by Surivai » 09/11/15, 14:46

And meanwhile, in China, children are getting to know the supercapacitors, while schools, high schools, engineering schools and industries work together to promote them:
http://www.supercondensateur.com/hktree ... ndensateur

(we are picking up :x )
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by Obamot » 09/11/15, 16:06

I do not see how the density / capacity would be a limiting factor for supercapacitors since it is precisely their strong point then x1000 is not so exceptional, the problem to solve is the resistivity (dielectric). And as long as no information is given on this point, nothing can be deduced from it.

FYI, graphene supercapacitors are already on sale at affordable costs, having overcome the problem of nanotubes, but not yet resistivity.

So without any other info ...
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by Surivai » 09/11/15, 17:46

I do not see how the density / capacity would be a limiting factor for supercapacitors since it is precisely their strong point then x1000 is not so exceptional, the problem to solve is the resistivity (dielectric).


On the contrary, compared to batteries, supercapacitors have a very low internal resistance.

The new SkelCap supercapacitors do even better than the others with an ESR of 0.095 mΩ:
http://www.supercondensateur.com/skelca ... e-arrivent

The big strong point supercapacitors is their power density = speed of charge

The big weakness supercapacitors is their energy density = amount of energy stored

FYI, graphene supercapacitors are already on sale at affordable costs, having overcome the problem of nanotubes


Which supercapacitors are you referring to? Do you have examples with prices?
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by jean.caissepas » 09/11/15, 23:52

Surivai wrote:
Which supercapacitors are you referring to? Do you have examples with prices?


Example: http://www.supercondensateur.com/supercondensateurs-graphene-28v-30000f-3v-12000f-made-in-china

Good reading...
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by Surivai » 10/11/15, 16:48



Thanks, but I haven't seen a price.
Just because it's "Made in China" doesn't mean it's necessarily cheap.
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by Obamot » 10/11/15, 17:47

Surivai wrote:
I do not see how the density / capacity would be a limiting factor for supercapacitors since it is precisely their strong point then x1000 is not so exceptional, the problem to solve is the resistivity (dielectric).


On the contrary, compared to batteries, supercapacitors have a very low internal resistance.

The new SkelCap supercapacitors do even better than the others with an ESR of 0.095 mΩ:
http://www.supercondensateur.com/skelca ... e-arrivent

The big strong point supercapacitors is their power density = speed of charge

The big weakness supercapacitors is their energy density = amount of energy stored.


I apologize but I think I was one of the first to talk about SkelCap in this forum! (As already in my post, precisely above!) : Cheesy: The same goes for the first wire on graphene ultracapacitors! ;)

Because that is the goal: to replace the batteries in the long term and to have inexpensive storage units to meet the load factor of the networks and to continue to develop renewable energies to achieve "Full Need" ...

As this definition indicates, graphene can only be one atom thick, otherwise it is not graphene!

What about the dielectric of such a material with an atom of thickness like graphene ... (?) I would answer that a dielectric of an atom with thickness eh bèh it must have a fairly low breakdown voltage .

It's cool to boast of having 4500 Farad in a condo, if it's only to be able to apply a µV to it before it slams, it's not going to take us far.

So yes, maybe one day, we will be able to make ultracondos with enough capacity for it to be really useful, but for the moment, your argument on the "power density"VS"energy density"is not sufficient (as long as they would not be usable as one would intend to use them ...).

As it stands, with the results currently obtained, what total thickness is there of wound in these ultracapacitors? Certainly not 1 atom. And can we run a car with a voltage of 2,85 V? I would love to but I doubt it! : Mrgreen:
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by Surivai » 12/11/15, 09:55

As this definition indicates, graphene can only be one atom thick, otherwise it is not graphene!

What about the dielectric of such a material with an atom of thickness like graphene ... (?) I would answer that a dielectric of an atom with thickness eh bèh it must have a fairly low breakdown voltage .


I think you confuse capacitor and supercapacitor. It's technically different, the supercapacitor is really technically between the capacitor and the battery, with an electrolyte and electrodes made to have the largest surface possible, but in 3D, not a flat surface, so that the ions penetrate into the electrode, while adhering to its surfaces.

The SkelCaps don't really use graphene, but "Carbide-Derived Carbon (CDC), which can effectively be represented as an assembly of curved graphene flakes."

But as it says in the big file on supercapacitors, there are several techniques for making graphene electrodes and the fact that it consists of a single layer of atoms is an advantage when we assemble full of layers of graphene to make an electrode (and certainly not a single sheet of graphene):
http://www.supercondensateur.com/dossie ... aphene-ntc

To represent the potential benefit of using graphene layers over activated carbon, one can compare it with sheets of paper and a piece of wood; the sheets of paper being ultimately only very thin layers of wood. To create the most holes, the thinnest possible, in a given volume of wood, is it preferable:
- create lots of holes in a piece of wood using a mini drill, or by cracking the wood with successive impacts?
- or take many sheets of paper and crumple them to make large pellets, then compress them to reduce the volume?

The first solution resembles the case of activated carbon, while the second solution resembles the case of 3D graphene. Presented like this, it seems obvious that using 3D graphene is a better solution to obtain supercapacitors capable of storing a large amount of energy.


Graphene combines good electronic conductivity with a large specific surface (theoretically 2670 m² / g). One of the problems with graphene is its tendency to re-stack when overlapping several sheets of graphene, thus recreating graphite.

To overcome this problem, several techniques can be used [12]:

Creation of 3D graphene: the graphene sheets are crumpled together, as we would to make large balls of paper.
Use of the electrolyte to separate the graphene sheets.
Use of carbon nanotubes which are interposed between the graphene sheets, forming pillars which prevent the re-stacking of the graphene sheets.


Here is what a graphene electrode can give:
Image

It's cool to boast of having 4500 Farad in a condo, if it's only to be able to apply a µV to it before it slams, it's not going to take us far.

You saw it yourself, the SkelCap 4500 Farads has an operating voltage of 2,85V. ???

your argument on "power density" VS "energy density"

This is not an argument, I explain things as they are, because obviously you had confused the two.

As it stands, with the results currently obtained, what total thickness is there of wound in these ultracapacitors? Certainly not 1 atom.

No, much more than one atom, as explained above.

And can we run a car with a voltage of 2,85 V? I would love to but I doubt it! Mr. Green

Current electric cars use batteries made of lithium-ion cells.
A lithium-ion accumulator has a nominal voltage of 3,6 or 3,7 V. It is the series connection of several Li-ion accumulators which makes it possible to obtain a battery with a higher voltage.

It's the same for supercapacitors. If you put 2 supercapacitors in series, the voltage will double. Capacity will decrease, however, but that's another story.

Here are 48V and 160V modules at Skeleton Technologies
http://www.skeletontech.com/modules

And then there are already electric supercapacitor buses, including the recent Bolloré BlueTram. So it works without problems ...
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by Obamot » 12/11/15, 16:48

I'm only talking about supercapacitors.

SkelCap having been the subject of several articles in a site that deals with supercapacitors, have reason to think that it is.

That yes, I knew that by putting the batteries in series we increased the voltage! This is what happens in any flashlight.

Surivai wrote:
It's cool to boast of having 4500 Farad in a condo, if it's only to be able to apply a µV to it before it slams, it's not going to take us far.

You saw it yourself, the SkelCap 4500 Farads has an operating voltage of 2,85V. ???
Yes, but I don't know how they are designed. If the elements / sheets assembled by exfoliation (or something) make elements independent of a µV, then we can arrive at 2,85V provided we have enough?

If yes, which of the dielectric? The problem remains.

your argument on "power density" VS "energy density"

This is not an argument, I explain things as they are, because obviously you had confused the two.

I have no ideas or answers to these questions, I'm trying to understand. It's not really my field. All I know is that R&D is blocking this dielectric issue (maybe a solution with another electrolyte?) As it stands, it doesn't seem to be resolved. Thank you to the one who will be able to provide more details on this.

As it stands, with the results currently obtained, what total thickness is there of wound in these ultracapacitors? Certainly not 1 atom.

No, much more than one atom, as explained above.

In this case, it's not graphene, I'm only talking about graphene.

But how can we compare the lithium VS ultracapacitors to graphene batteries until we have solved the dielectric problem of these. I am convinced that this is the key point of ultracapacitors.
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by Surivai » 13/11/15, 12:26

All I know is that R&D is stuck on this dielectric issue


Do you have a link to an article explaining this blocking at the dielectric?

In any case, this "blocking" does not prevent the creation of 2,85V supercapacitors and does not prevent the creation of buses supplied exclusively by supercapacitors.

jean.caissepas gave two other examples of graphene supercapacitors:
http://www.supercondensateur.com/superc ... e-in-china

With a 3V / 12 000 Farads supercapacitor with graphene composite electrodes and activated carbon.

And a supercapacitor 2,8V / 30 000 farads nano-graphene hybrid with an energy density of 21 Wh / kg and a power density of 2 kW / kg.

So, yes, there is still some progress to be made, especially with regard to increasing the energy density, but supercapacitors are already operational.

In this case, it's not graphene, I'm only talking about graphene.


Have you read what I wrote before? If so, tell me what you have smoked.

But how can one compare the VS ultracapacitor lithium batteries to graphene until the dielectric problem of the graphene has been solved.


There is no dielectric problem, except to improve the performance even further ...
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