All new {12V networks rather than 220V? ...}

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swyng69
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All new {12V networks rather than 220V? ...}




by swyng69 » 21/11/05, 21:23

Hello,
I do not know on which forum direct me then I will explain my point of view to you and maybe I will have to go elsewhere.
Well, I think that today the use of 220 volts is no longer necessarily necessary, all existing equipment has transformers inside. So we would save money if we clamped at the output of our EDF meters a voltage of 12 volts.
I do not know how much energy cost this transformation. If we lose too much power or something, what if our real energy consumption goes down?
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by Former Oceano » 21/11/05, 21:52

We went from 110V to 220V because a higher voltage allows us to pass the same power with half the intensity.

As the line losses are due to the resistance of electrical circuits and lines in thermal form, according to P = RI², we see that doubling the intensity quadruple the energy loss.

To pass from 220-240V to 12V, would amount to dividing by approximately 20 the tension. Transmitting the same power would imply providing 20 times more intensity, therefore using wires of the much larger section (therefore more expensive) and would multiply the line losses by 20² = 400 times approximately ...

It is better to stay at 220 / 240V for the most common devices. In addition, if we look at the transformers of our other devices (cordless phones, mobile, fax, answering machines, ADSL-box, modem, printers, scanners, etc.) they mostly have different output voltages (3V at 24V). So we would still need voltage regulating devices to provide the proper voltage, in short it will be nothing simpler ...

On the other hand, in the case of a backup power supply or by ENR a 12V battery circuit with 12V economical devices can be considered ...
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by Christophe » 21/11/05, 22:18

Here it makes me think of a question to which I never had a clear answer: the choice of 50/60 Hz?

Anyone have a technical or historical (or other?) Explanation to explain the choice of these values?

1) For the values ​​50 or 60?

2) And why precisely a difference depending on the country (but the I think it comes from industrial competition)
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by Other » 22/11/05, 06:36

Hello,
frequency is a form ((of energy)) in addition to voltage and amperage
it will take a long time to explain simply
At the start the frequency was 25 hZ the fluorescent flashed
The transformer design was bigger with more winding on the coils. The motors had a low rotation speed
at two poles that gave 1500 rpm
a 2 pole motor in 50 Hz rotates at 3000 rpm
in 60 hz 3600 rpm
the higher the frequency the less the motors are and much less wire on the coils
in computers the power supply and a lot of welding machine, to save wire and mass in the transformer
we make a current at medium frequency 400 to 600hz then it is reified for welding it makes light and economical machines to build, since the generalization of inverters and rectifiers we can afford that.
But we cannot increase the frequency of the mains current too much that gives other problem and loss when it is necessary to transport it more the question of the reactive is connected with the frequency, certain high voltage line the current and rectified to be transported and delivered as an alternative upon arrival
To try to illustrate the frequency for Mr everyone
it's a bit like taking 3 coils offset by 120 degrees in which we rotate a magnet, it's the generator
at the end of the line of these 3 wires we connect 3 coils to 120 dgres (the same as the generator) it becomes a motor
which turns exactly the same speed as the generator so the faster the generator turns the faster the engine turns (a bit like it is a mechanical axis which drives the engine, but in reality it is a rotating magnetic field)
The principle of the three phase is to give a direction to the rotation of the motors that makes a polarized rotating field, while the single phase the sense of rotation must be artificially given to the motor.
So the power of the motor depends on the current of the voltage and a (a little on the speed of rotation,) this is just that, a simple illustration in reality it is a little different, too long to elaborate here.
A motor designed for 50hz supplied with 60hz is found to have too many turns on its coils it would have to increase by 20% its voltage
A motor which is designed to run on 60 Hz powered by 50 Hz does not have enough turns for these coils, the voltage should be reduced by 20%
Andre
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by Former Oceano » 22/11/05, 19:22

In addition in the case of the three phase there is the possibility of obtaining 380V due to the phase shift at 120 ° of the phases.

This is what is called in France a power take-off, on which are generally connected professional devices.

The goal is also to increase the tension in order to have more power for the same intensity.
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by swyng69 » 23/11/05, 07:56

Hello,
I may have explained myself badly. My 12-volt network would only be for the internal network of the accommodation.
You really need a 220 v bulb for a toilet or a corridor.
Switching to 12 V would be more advantageous in terms of energy saving.
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by rezut » 23/11/05, 08:57

hello swyng69

this is also the question I ask myself
to know
is it better to have a 12volt network or a transformer per lighting point and which of the 2 solutions and the less energy-hungry
I think that's the kind of question you ask

personally I have this type of lamp in the bathroom (namely a transformer which powers 3 35watts lamps but I can not say if it consumes less than a single 100watts lamp in 220v

if anyone has the answer !!!
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by gegyx » 23/11/05, 11:43

The electricity arrives at 220v at your home, at your meter and you pay at that level.
You choose your indoor installations, starting from this source.
The purpose of your question is to want to consume less? To be eco-friendly or just pay less in the short term at the end of the day?
Economical: consume as little as possible overall, so as not to disturb the balance of the planet, while remaining economical. You can light with a vegetable oil lamp; it has proven itself.
Do you still care about electricity? See if you can make it naturally, windmill, windmill, voltaic panels, stirling ... of course it's random ...
Use the electric company? avoid heavy consumer devices, unnecessary gadgets, and develop habits of economic management of household energy.
For lighting, low consumption lamps in 220v, whose price has dropped.
Take new technology lamps? LED lamp, light walls, chemical or biological light? The best thing is to wait a bit ... Let it be comfortable in quality and price ...
What bothers me with low voltage lighting is that a transformer is supplied (and purchased) for each use; that we put more small lamps to match a big one; and as far as I know, it's always halogens (heating and not very economical in consumption).
When I tinkered a bit, I studied a 12v network in the house, to provide the multiple needs in small assemblies and electronic devices (not lighting) of the house, and thus avoid the multiplicity of small transformers; (it was the transformer of the doorbell that gave me the idea); therefore a large transformer for the whole house and low amperage 12v network, passing through several wires (8/10), remaining free on the telephone contactors that I had installed on my arrival, in all the rooms, wired in 8 wires; a DC voltage is preferable so as not to disturb, parasitize telephone tapping.
In conclusion, it is you who sees your needs and your choices on this planet, according to your income.

But know that if the Edf provides you with 220v, the best is to use 220v equipment…
Varied and cheaper equipment because in large series.
A transformer plugged into a heater outlet, even when not in use.
Any transformation of tension generates losses ; yield less than 100%.
Gegyx
Last edited by gegyx the 23 / 11 / 05, 23: 25, 1 edited once.
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by Christophe » 23/11/05, 14:02

I moved the subject to the sub-forum "electricity"
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by Other » 23/11/05, 15:16

Hello,
Power the house with 12 volts or 110 volts or 220 volts
The energy consumption is always the same one does not escape the law Power = amperage X voltage
The lower the voltage, the larger the feed wires must be and the more the losses in the line increase.
Low voltage 12 volts c, is for safety reasons
And more economical to manufacture incandescent lamps (the filament is larger therefore less internal support.
Now it is so easy to go to 12 volts DC in 220v AC with the inverters which are not expensive and to make the reverse, it is also easy for a long time, it was much more complicated when I was young. We are in abundance of material, everything is easy to achieve, in the electronic field.
(I am from the generation of selenium rectifiers and DC motors with brushes and radio lamps)
To give you an idea of ​​the voltage losses in a line
Lastly an electrician replaced all the lights of the runway at the municipal airport, he put 75watts lamps instead of the original 40watts, it works in 110vlts.
As we get closer to the end of the track the lights get dimmer due to the drop in voltage in the line, I have effected that some measurements gave 117 volts at the start and at the end of the 65volts line.
The remedy is either to enlarge the queues which are already very large or to decrease the consumption, they replaced the lights with 40watts and everything has become normal, anyway for landing at night it does not take much light

Andre
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