Do three phase with single phase? (help stp boubka)

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Nimrod
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posts: 3
Registration: 21/02/11, 21:43

Do three phase with single phase? (help stp boubka)




by Nimrod » 26/02/11, 23:17

Hi,
I just read Boubka's subject: https://www.econologie.com/forums/faire-du-t ... t6817.html Very interesting. Could you however draw the sketch (wiring diagram) of your assembly as it is on the photo. With detailed connections to the relays. I think it is a telemechanical relay (contactor) type LC1. Can you indicate the numbers of the connections on your drawing; the connections with the time relay (I think?) What is the model of this relay? In your drawing under the 100 microfarad capacitor does the R correspond to the relay or to a switch? From the pilot motor terminal block it seems to come out 4 purple wires, 2 blue wires, 1 yellow wire and the gray cable. Where do they plug in? Anyway, can you for a handicapped person of the electrical diagrams, starting from the drawing of your relays and their numbers draw the "wire" connections with the other components: pilot motor, capacitors, switches ...
A big thank you in advance from my son who is impatient to be able to use his milling machine which works on the three-phase 220 : Cry:
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boubka
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by boubka » 27/02/11, 13:04

hello nemrod
first of all how is your milling machine powered? because the command can pose a problem ...
in tetra (5 wires: 3phases + neutral + earth) or in tri (4 wires: 3phases + earth)?
you will have to separate the order.

then what is the power of your recovery engine (pilot) and its speed? a 4 pole (1500 rpm) is preferable.

how powerful is the milling motor?
it will be necessary to couple the two motors at 220 v (triangle coupling).

now we must determine according to a table the value of the capacitor.

once you have it all go to testing with just an inter and a take.
if all goes well I will remake you a detailed diagram to connect in auto start

the link of the old post is no longer fct here is the new one: http: //voltaweb.elec.free.fr/robertg/motmono.html

Image

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 9YW1Tf.jpg
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boubka
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Registration: 10/08/07, 17:22
x 2




by boubka » 27/02/11, 13:34

a quick sketch.
a little more detail to help you would be welcome, a photo of the cabinet elec of the milling machine for example
https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... KqXvm7.jpg
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Nimrod
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 3
Registration: 21/02/11, 21:43




by Nimrod » 28/02/11, 18:40

Hello boubka,
Thank you for your very quick response.
The milling machine is supplied with 220 Volts sorting with 4 wires (3 phases + earth).
The pilot recovery motor is 1,1 Kw (cosphi 0,79 and 4,95 Amperes and 1420 Rpm). The milling machine motor (spindle motor is 1,5 HP. After testing and connection as in the photo (triangle connection) and with around 70 micro farad of permanent condo it works. The phases are still to be balanced: U1 / V1 : 239 V
V1 / W1: 250 V
U1 / W1: 219 V
I'm still looking for auto start with start capacitor because I would like to try with my other motor which makes it 4 Kw!
Where did you find your capacitors? I do not find anything similar on the net except prohibitive prices !!!
I have in addition has 2 Telemechanical relays supplied with the 4 kw motor: A contactor (I think) LC1 D163 in which is fitted a thermal relay LR D09 314 as well as what I think is a circuit breaker (Telemechanics GV2-M14) . I also recovered 2 Merlin Gerin circuit breakers: A single phase DPN C16 (phase + neutral) and a Tri Multi 9 C60N C16.
Should I use them? and above all how to wire it all?
I am missing I think a time relay to disconnect the starting condos once the engine is started. The Americans use a potential relay (steveco 90-66) not found in France. What can I use instead?
Thank you in advance.
Image
Image
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boubka
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by boubka » 01/03/11, 15:57

hello nemrod
The pilot recovery motor is 1,1 Kw (cosphi 0,79 and 4,95 Amperes and 1420 Rpm). The milling machine motor (spindle motor is 1,5 HP.


the power of the pilot motor is equal to the power of the spindle motor, normally the pilot motor must be more powerful but you have to try it can surely do so since the milling machine starts with a low load.


After testing and connection as in the photo (triangle connection) and with about 70 micro farad of permanent condo it works. The phases are still to be balanced: U1 / V1: 239 V
V1 / W1: 250 V
U1 / W1: 219 V


does not seek to balance the phases whether in current or voltage. balanced it will not work anymore: with this mono phase shift device the motor is unbalanced
to run in mono the only requirement is that it does not "growl" and does not heat up, but even that we do not care, we just want the engine to run at its speed for 5 seconds
for restarting and stopping, another motor must run continuously, style the pump


I'm still looking for auto start with start capacitor because I would like to try with my other motor which makes it 4 Kw!


drop a 4 kw tri in mono you will never start it, max 2.2 kw


Where did you find your capacitors?

recuperated in the industry but it also has it in public lighting, fluorescent tubes, ills etc ...
be careful not to take start-up condos, they will snap (generally they are black) and take a service voltage (ts) always greater than the use

it will also have to separate the order, is other things.
I will resume later ... I have to go
a+
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Sanson
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Registration: 14/09/09, 17:32
Location: Bordeaux




by Sanson » 06/03/11, 21:01

Nemrod, if the proposed system is functional, it remains DIY .....

I would be you, I would rather turn to a dimmer with which you can get out of sorting from single phase.

As a bonus, you have the speed variator function ....

You will find, at bargain prices, on auction sites;)
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boubka
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by boubka » 07/03/11, 14:17

hello Sanson
Nemrod, if the proposed system is functional, it remains DIY .....

I would be you, I would rather turn to a dimmer with which you can get out of sorting from single phase.

As a bonus, you have the speed variator function ....

You will find, at bargain prices, on auction sites;)


I completely agree with you, the dynamic converter system was still valid 10 years ago for a purely financial reason.
a variator for 1.1 kw it must be in the 150 euro.
you still have to switch to the other motors (pump, advance)
in mono.

I prefer to wait for the choice of Nemrod before pushing further
a+
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Sanson
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posts: 21
Registration: 14/09/09, 17:32
Location: Bordeaux




by Sanson » 07/03/11, 15:18

boubka wrote:the dynamic converter system was still valid 10 years ago for a purely financial reason.
It is still found in the avia domain (For 400 Hz), but we find more and more variators.

For small auxiliary motors, it would be necessary to see if they are not supplied with 220 V ....

If there are 4 wires (+ G) on its power supply, there is also 220 mono!
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boubka
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by boubka » 07/03/11, 15:55

If there are 4 wires (+ G) on its power supply, there is also 220 mono!

The milling machine is supplied with 220 Volts sorting with 4 wires (3 phases + earth).
so no 220 mono.

on the photo of the wardrobe I see:
an inter sort
3 starting fuses
4 contactors with thermal relay
1 control transformer

the first contactor (from left to right): speed one of the spindle motor (phase A, B, C)
the second: motor advance or pump
the third: speed 2 of the spindle motor (phaseA2; B2, C2)
apparently no electrical direction reversal since the RST phases do not cross
the fourth: pump or advance
the control transformer is supplied between two phases of the fourth contactor in 220 v. (it will be disconnected and the power supply separately in 220 mono)

the variator must only control the spindle motor, it is therefore necessary to separate the two pump and advance contactors, the 220v mono power supplies and put a condo on the two smallest motor or one or 2 other variators

the speed one and speed 2 contactors must be supplied in common on the drive and a control relay added to each for the drive control.
and can be changed the order

all this is a bit complicated for an uninitiated : Cry:

remains the simplest walkthrough, take the sorting :?
if you choose that, you just have to put the wire of the transformer on 380 v (currently in 220) and to re-couple your 3 motors in 380 v (Y)
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Sanson
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I learn econologic
posts: 21
Registration: 14/09/09, 17:32
Location: Bordeaux




by Sanson » 07/03/11, 16:27

boubka wrote:The milling machine is supplied with 220 Volts sorting with 4 wires (3 phases + earth).
so no 220 mono.
I would not want to argue, especially since my experiences / knowledge in industrial electricity are a bit distant.

That said, of the 220 V tri, I would tend to say that it does not exist: 380 V tri, on the other hand, yes.

Further on, you declare:
"to re-couple your 3 motors in 380 v (Y)"
Wouldn't it rather be to couple them in a triangle (to have the 380), rather than to couple them in a star (220 v) ??

Please note that at no time do we have photos of the motor nameplates (and therefore their characteristics)
NB: I did not analyze the system either (For me, it would be, direct, => variable speed drive .. :D )

On the other hand, I find the contactors (From old Telemechanics) very large.
Only 1 seems to me to be correctly sized, that of the motor power supply.

I reasoned as I wrote above, just as a designer should have done.
As there is no need to supply a sprinkler pump (to take this example) in 380 sort, I would have supplied it with 220 v (Between phase and neutral): the motors are more widespread and less expensive


But hey, it's just a matter of arguing: I wouldn't say anything: not sufficiently competent in the game and lacking too much information.

NB: I know that the 220v tri exists, but you will admit that it is no longer very common to meet it ....
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