Prohibition of electric heating!

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bernardd
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Prohibition of electric heating!




by bernardd » 04/09/10, 20:54

From this year, filament bulbs and Joule effect heating are prohibited in Europe, for larger powers.

Lighting accounts for 15% of household electricity consumption according to some studies, rather old.

However, the Joule effect heating is used even more for something else: electric heating! including hot water.

And electric heating + hot water represents more than 35% of electricity consumption total in France, according to these estimates made from RTE consumption curves and hot water consumption estimates.

Can I replace an electric heater with an incandescent bulb? It would be more efficient than any heater, especially in the infrared! And yet it is now prohibited.

Ask for a ban on electric heating for buildings and for hot water!

It can be replaced everywhere by thermal solar panels with hot water storage and a biomass boiler for the winter.

It is the surest way to make France independent in energy and to improve the economy. And to become independent from electrical breakdowns ...

Incidentally, this will reduce pollution: excessively polluting cars are prohibited ...
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 04/09/10, 21:49

Excellent, I did not catch!

This is a beautiful paradox!

For lighting, France was forced to follow "European directives" like other countries. But we must do self-promotion of nuclear energy which is a source of profits ...

Yes of course, for the assistant it would be better to go towards this ban. It seems obvious!

Another paradox, it will be necessary to find other means in the future, because all the houses will not be "passive" within fifty years ... when one will leave the "all oil" for the electricity of Désertec. How will we heat then?
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by jlt22 » 05/09/10, 01:17

Lighting is mostly used when the days are short.
When adopting lamps that no longer heat, it is necessary to consume another energy to obtain the complement of Joule effect lamps.
What you save on one side, you have to spend on another.
Studies are therefore false.
As nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed, a decrease of 15%, will result in an increase of 35%.
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by Obamot » 05/09/10, 02:32

No it's not so easy to calculate!

Because the efficiency of a heating based on "incandescent lamp" (lolol) should be even worse than an electric heater, since it is not designed for ...

In this case it is a real waste of a factor around 1 in 10 compared to fuel oil (on the basis of 1l. Of fuel oil = 10 kWh).

Approximate cost per KWh per type of energy:

Sun: 0
Wood chips: 0.023
Wood in logs: 0.043
Geothermal heat pump: 0.053
Bulk wood pellets: 0.057
Wood pellets in bags: 0.07
Network gas: 0.073
Domestic fuel: 0.083
Electricity: 0.11
Propane gas: 0.114
Kerdane: 0.18

Not obvious either, because when we take the investment of a heating installation, we must also take into account the depreciation of the installation. And there I believe that the life of incandescent lamps does not weigh very heavy compared to the dissipated heat compared to the life of LED lighting (~ 50h?)

No, I don't want to heat myself with electricity, even with LEDs, I promise! : Mrgreen:
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by oiseautempete » 05/09/10, 08:57

The vast majority of dwellings equipped with electric heating are apartments, moreover, most often without flues, so if we want to modify the heating system, it would be very complicated and very expensive ... Chez moi par ex. there is no town gas, impossible to install a common boiler room (no local available), the apartments are certainly provided with smoke pipes, but the installation of a stove would be very annoying (living room in length) and there is no storage room for fuel (just a box for the car) so only a fuel with a low energy density that is not very bulky would be possible, in this case, fuel oil ... it reminds me of stoves oil that my parents had 40 years ago ... and the drudgery of jerry cans to mount the oil on the 3rd floor ...
Suggestion inapplicable retroactively therefore ... for the new ok, so unless you pay me for a new house ... : Cheesy:
Last edited by oiseautempete the 05 / 09 / 10, 11: 17, 1 edited once.
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by sen-no-sen » 05/09/10, 10:30

Your proposal is excellent, however it can only apply in the context of new construction / renovations.
Most of the buildings, all the more so in the city, are difficult to "convert".
Like fire safety standards, a ban on electric heating for new construction should be determined at a cut-off date ... for the rest, sources of virtuous energy production will have to be found.
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by chatelot16 » 05/09/10, 11:39

there are always some who think only of prohibiting

what's the point of forbidding when we can't do better

those who have to ruin themselves in electric heating ask for nothing better than having another heating

alas i find the right heating system lamentably too expensive: there is big progress to be made

and it is not by wasting money to replace the incandescent lamps by fluorescent lamps too expensive, of too short lifespan, and polluting with mercury that one advances much

To move forward, you must first build good plants in France for good heating equipment: so that good equipment is no longer a luxury reserved for the rich eco-friendly!
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by chatelot16 » 05/09/10, 12:01

Obamot wrote:Approximate cost per KWh per type of energy:

Sun: 0
Geothermal heat pump: 0.053
Electricity: 0.11


COP = 0.11 / 0.053 = 2.07

anyone who installs a geothermal heat pump with such a low COP must file a complaint!

forget about the shallow underground pipes that freeze when you need it most

with a real deep borehole which always gives 10 ° c therefore allows the cap to be used even in very cold weather, with a floor heating at 35 ° C the theoretical COP is

cop = 1 / (1 - tf / tc)
tf = 10 ° c + 273 = 283 ° K
tc = 35 ° C + 273 = 308 ° K

cop = 1/1 - 283/308 = 12.3

well on this cop of 12 is a theoretical maximum: but a good heat pump should do much more than what we see today
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by dedeleco » 05/09/10, 14:52

You have to put figures on the heat energy to come out of the ground, especially with the maximum COP of 12 (possible according to the Carnot principle, but never produced by the manufacturers, upside down fridge, too rudimentary, if not too expensive) and then the surface and length of the exchanger pipe, in fact the volume of earth at 13 ° C or 10 ° C, necessary underground so that this earth does not cool too much over the whole winter by renewing the necessary heat !!
Since this heat energy is the same as for heating a conventional house, it takes in order of magnitude, the same volume of earth as for the recovery of summer heat by summer solar collectors for the winter with the same geothermal system !!
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post176700.html#176700
Since we can't cool much, at most 3 ° C or 13 ° C to 10 ° C, for a good COP, on the contrary, with summer recovery for winter, we can heat to 50 ° C, 60 ° C, or higher possible temperature excursions and therefore this summer recovery for winter allows a lower volume of soil !!!
I have the impression that geothermal energy is undersized, because otherwise excessive price, and ends up with frozen ground at 0 ° C and a less good yield ???
We must compare the investment in geothermal energy with that of a 2KW fan heater, ie 10 to 20 € !!
Reserved for the rich who can anticipate the future.

And even, I note, in my personal case, that heat pumps have a lifespan of 8 years max, (air air in the Var by architect) because the installer who asked it to me in 2002 has just sent me a nice letter at the end of August 2010 with:
It is important to worry about replacing your installation today !!
your installation works on R22, since January 1, 2010 it is prohibited to store R22, shortage of recycled R22, very difficult to obtain, therefore significant increase in price, and on January 2015, 22, even recycled, RXNUMX will be totally prohibited !!!

I see this installer wriggling with pleasure, lots of money to pump !!
So in 2002, he installed systems that would be changed in 8 years knowingly, voluntarily !!
: Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:
Same today, the current fluid, still not ecological, will be banned in 8 years and all the heat pumps will have to be changed, not to mention those that break down, because their lifespan is adjusted in the design of heat pumps !!
It is like insecticides and herbicides, old dangerous, therefore prohibited, with new, still dangerous, intended to be prohibited 8 years later, endless, for 50 years, just long enough to realize the dangers of the new !!
So, ecologically, the manufacturers build a perpetual work !!
So, the same, the PAC fluids are studied to be changed often !!
: Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

Also, for me never again CAP !!
More confidence !!!
free wood and solar heating
: Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:
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by chatelot16 » 05/09/10, 15:57

it is not because there is too much bad heat pump that one cannot dream of a good

a good refrigeration compressor is almost eternal: I recovered some from the scrap metal which certainly had 20 years of service, and which we continued to do at home with all kinds of tests

no problem for the fluid: just choose the right one: R290: it's simply propane: it is already used by many air / water cap models

of course this R290 can only be used for air / water or water / water models: we are not going to put a condenser full of propane in the house

sending the unnecessary solar collector heat in summer into geothermal drilling would be an experience. it would be possible to have a drilling so hot at the end of the summer that there would not even be need to run the heat pump at the beginning of the winter

for heat storage in the ground this is where it happens
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-d ... 78-50.html

here I prefer to talk about the absurdity of prohibiting electric heating: imagine such a law: the owner will be forced to do expensive work and further increase the price of rent, or would be unable to do so unmodified housing does be more commendable: worsening housing shortage

do not forget that there are people who no longer heat for lack of money! in this case there is unused electric radiator or an oil boiler with an empty tank does not change much
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