Water injection methods in the pantone / engine

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
Other
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Water injection methods in the pantone / engine




by Other » 22/07/07, 04:59

Hello
That makes a lot of systems

bubbler
Steam generator (Michel)
Carburetor (ZAC)
Nebulizer
Mechanical injection (MMM, Michelm)
Exhaust gas spraying. (among the first montages that I had experienced. sometimes you have to go back)

I forgot another one that I tested that gave good results
with a small flow of exhaust gas pumping like aquarium with water return is exhaust gas in the bubbler (one of the best sytéme by its simplicity, which gives a milky mist, but I had to abound because of the harsh climate in winter ..)


I am testing a water injection system with exhaust gases
the system is on the principle of the airbrush, the exhaust gas pressure is of the order of 1 bar in front of the turbo depending on the speed, the injection of the exhaust gases is done through a small hole of 1/8 available from the injector makes a venturi pump to entrain air with the water mist, the water comes out in a fine emulsion with a jet of air in the open air.
In the assembly with hot gas it is even finer.
For the first tests it is quite conclusive, it remains to know the duration over time, heat resistance, materials plugging the orifices with carbon particles in the diesel exhaust, etc.
the point that remains to be regulated is the regulated flow
Depending on the power, with a carburetor and venturi it was approximately self-regulating.
although with injection by exhaust at low speeds little pressure little injection,

The main defect with the carburetor that requires a certain vacuum at the inlet of the reactor, so a small nozzle to have a good spraying and at a speed of 80kmh difficult to make the carburetor work, another disadvantage lack of air with the fog the reactor do not like saturated air or large drops.
With the injection more this problem of depression at 80 km / h is resolved. As I said before, I know how to operate the reactor above 100km with an acceptable output, but I'm working to make it functional at 80kmh and if possible driving in town a little average use of a car.
The reactor temperature is one of the operating criteria, there is a minimum threshold, but the efficiency of the reactor is not directly proportional to the high temperature.

the temperature and the product entering the reactor has more influence than the quality of the reactor assembly.
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diablotruc
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by diablotruc » 23/07/07, 23:05

Bonjour à tous

I come back for a walk to give info to André.

Off topic but I wanted to say it: I am one of the people addicted to econology and who currently do not have the means to make their practical contribution. It is not the desire that is missing, but other imperatives eat me all my time at the moment. As I cannot experiment with you, I often remain to read you in silence. I understand that it was not well seen, please excuse me, but your research and your commitment fascinate me so much. I take this opportunity to congratulate you all and encourage you to continue.

For André,

I work in a laboratory that uses sometimes very bizarre analytical devices. There is one that has caught my eye for a long time. It is the ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma) it allows to determine the concentration of various chemical elements in solution by injecting them into a plasma gas. In fact, it is the nebulization part which is interesting. I would have to take a picture for you…

1 - The nebulizer:
The liquid is brought into a glass or teflon nozzle by a fine capillary and by means of a small peristaltic pump with variable speed (therefore variable flow adaptable to the regime of a car engine) which is nebulized by air or gas at a fairly low pressure of the order of 1 to 2 bars at low flow (pressure recoverable after turbo?)

2 - Spray chamber:
The nebulizer sends a fine mist into a room and creates a circular flow. On the side of the chamber, in the direction of the flow, there is an air or gas inlet to entrain the nebulized liquid towards the plasma torch which is above. There is also at the bottom of this chamber a nozzle which collects a part of the liquid which has had time to form drops
As the whole is made of glass, it is nice to observe and during operation the fog formed is barely visible.

The negative points :

low flow rates from 1 to 7ml / minute (about 400 ml per hour at most it's already not bad!)
the price of these parts (I have no figures but like all advanced gear it must be strong!)
The fragility of the glass which constitutes the nebul.

Below a commercial link with some photos

http://fr.geicp.com/cgi-bin/site/wrappe ... e_seaspray
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by Other » 24/07/07, 06:11

Hello
As I cannot experiment with you, I often remain to read you in silence. I understood that it was not well seen,


Not well seen it depends who judges .. Not everyone has' tools and the possibility of making montages,, On the forum the contribution of all knowledge is very useful.

2 - Spray chamber:
The nebulizer sends a fine mist into a room and creates a circular flow. On the side of the chamber, in the direction of the flow, there is an air or gas inlet to entrain the nebulized liquid towards the plasma torch which is above. There is also at the bottom of this chamber a nozzle which collects a part of the liquid which has had time to form drops
As the whole is made of glass, it is nice to observe and during operation the fog formed is barely visible.


During my old attempts to nebulise fuel oil with exhaust gases I also realized that it worked well in a room with a certain volume (the walls must be away from the jet and there must be a hot temperature to maintain the drops volatilized, whatever the method for nebulizing especially at high flow rates, we always make large unwanted drops even more with water than fuels.

In the tests the production of aerosol in the open air is done quite well, you do not need too much pressure 10lbs when it is well adjusted, the drops flies and rises in the air a bit like soap bubbles but not visible to the eye you need powerful lighting from below to see the effect, but as soon as you try to volatilize in a restricted duct there is a lot of loss on the walls.
This explains why when we make a relation with the consumption of water is economy we often forget that the large drops which have pass in the reactor were used for nothing.

Currently the sticky drops fall into a mini bulb in the exhaust before entering the reactor, this is not a good solution.
The next step will be to volatilize directly in the water tank and recover at the top only what is volatile, it is a little what I had succeeded with a bubbler pump, to keep in suspension all these small drops which we l air to sparkle when you light them, you need a good amount of air, the exhaust gas that is used for spraying is not enough that's why I add air ..

What role does nebulized water have in the plasma torch?
What% of water is reformed in the room, compared to that nebulized?

at a fairly low pressure of the order of 1 to 2 bars at low flow (pressure recoverable after turbo?)

with the turbo it works well and I would have preferred, it is clean air is hot, but the turbo starts to pressurized around 2000rpm and becomes interesting at 3000rpm, as I work to make the reactor operate at low speeds, city and rural, the engine runs at 2500 rpm at 100kmh and it is from 90 to 110kmh that I want the reactor to be efficient, I took the exhaust gases exactly at the location of the ERG valve.

Volatilization of diesel with an exhaust jet in my first assemblies

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Bubbler pump in the principle of aquarium pumps with exhaust gas beautiful nebulistion and recovery at the top of the bubbler
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by diablotruc » 24/07/07, 16:45

Hello André,

The device is used to analyze ions in solution in water at very low concentrations. So water is used as a solvent. It can be pure or acidic water or some other solvent. In the latter case, the nebulizer will be made of Teflon. By passing in the plasma gas it takes a specific color which makes it possible to determine the element and its concentration.

For volumes, I think that at least 1/3 of the nebulized water is taken up at the bottom of the room and everything takes place at room temperature. (We can ask ourselves the question of what would happen at 60 ° C for example?)
This material is quite small: The nebulizer at ~ 6 cm in length in total and the chamber 6 cm in diameter and 5 cm high.
But it still allows to nebulize between ~ 50 and 400 ml of water per hour and is almost indifferent to pressure or depression.

If I find a way I will try to take some pictures. The link of the last post already allows you to get an idea of ​​the material.

For the price it should turn to ~ 400 euros for the room and at least as much for the Pfouuuu nebulizer nozzle! There, the peristaltic pump etc. is still missing. Honestly, I think there is a way to tinker with something less specific that works almost as well.

@ + Thierry
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by gilgamesh » 24/07/07, 23:17

Hello,


I saw the links and this cheat looks a lot like an aerograph - "airbrush" .- and surely it's much cheaper and in stainless steel. An airbrush has many possibilities of adjusting the pressure level and the type of spray claimed etc. But I don't know what the minimum pressure is to use it.
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by Christophe » 24/07/07, 23:33

I came across a misting kit at L'Enchanteur Arthur which plugs directly into the network.

Image

http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/washingsupplies.php

It is equipped with this kind of nozzle given for 1.89L / h (but under what pressure ??):
Image

2 technical problems arise with the use of this to boost a water engine:

1) pressurization
2) regulation of the quantity injected

I suppose that a GVI is frankly ultimately simpler and more reliable (a fogger can build up)
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by abyssin3 » 25/07/07, 16:19

I suppose that a GVI is frankly ultimately simpler and more reliable (a fogger can build up)

unless you use distilled water ...
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by Christophe » 25/07/07, 18:02

Well it was rather for the regulation that I said that ...

The scaling was the "malus" ...
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by diablotruc » 26/07/07, 22:46

Hello everyone

I am convinced that, as it stands, Michel's GVI is the simplest solution to implement. In addition, if the assembly is neat, it has almost only advantages. Congratulations to him again for this discovery ... And it is certainly not the last!

On the other hand, with the aim of validating or not the effects of the temperature of the injected liquid, the ideal quantity, etc. mounting with an efficient nebulizer might not be bad.

For the one (the nebul.) That I presented above, the variation of flow is done by means of a very small peristaltic pump with variable speed.

1 - We could consider linking this type of pump to the engine speed (mechanical transmission with mechanical variator to change the flow / engine speed)

2 - Gradually increase the temperature of the water from ~ 20 ° C to <boiling just at the pump outlet before the nebulizer inlet. (without forgetting the heating of the nebulization chamber)

3 - Work on the vacuum in the assembly

4 - Once the correct parameters have been set, change the pH of the water…

The idea is there, but we always come back to the same problem, the lack of means. To do well, it would require funds, a test band, time ... In short, a small miracle.
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by camel1 » 26/07/07, 23:39

Hi diablotruc! (funny your username!)

Thank you for your compliments !

diablotruc wrote:1 - We could consider linking this type of pump to the engine speed (mechanical transmission with mechanical variator to change the flow / engine speed)


Your idea is not bad, but the problem is that the position of the acceleration lever of the pump does not correspond to a constant power at the wheel ... the internal regulation makes things very complicated ...

So enslaving your mist on the accelerator would be counterproductive ...
The best would be to enslave it by a K probe planted in the exhaust line, and there, it would be significant (the more it forces, the more it heats ...) and undoubtedly easier to realize ...

The idea is there, but we always come back to the same problem, the lack of means. To do well, it would require funds, a test band, time ... In short, a small miracle.


For the miracle, we take care of it ... : Lol: 8) 8) 8)

A + + +

Michel
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We were on the brink, but we made a big step forward ...

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