Consumption tests reliable! Flowmeter or weighed?

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
User avatar
lio74
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 333
Registration: 15/03/06, 23:16
Location: Haute-Vienne and SAVOY

Consumption tests reliable! Flowmeter or weighed?




by lio74 » 09/07/07, 23:15

good evening econologists!

I open a post here, with the same function as that on thermocouple probes! : Cheesy:

to introduce the trick, I represent an association officially created since April 18, 2007 which is called Aid for Sustainable Development (ADD for friends and family) : Lol:)
I will post a communication later ... the site is still under construction, to contact us directly:
assoadd@gmail.com

for the object:
The purpose of this association is to promote, disseminate and allow the implementation of
energy alternatives for a more independent and respectful lifestyle
nature

our activity is awareness raising for the general public and we are going to provide development aid for developing countries like Africa and India (heavy users of electro groups)

so we have already made 4 montages in June thanks to the help of Michel schmit (see quanthomme).
The R21, 350 km, by Michel (with bubbler) achieves, with a ladle, 000 to 10% of consumption and he ganged up almost 15km / h in the climbs ... figures to be confirmed when he has made several thousand km.

we also installed a 3kW electro diesel group. it is a mono cylinder cylinder equipped with a GV in short of adjustment ... the 2 other assemblies are in standby.

we're going to have a week of testing done, and we need to work out an undeniable protocol :!:

I ordered a flow meter from conrad, I put a bike computer in his ass + a battery and presto !!! it works, I did some tests it's funny ... (the photos later they are still on the device)

then by dint of discussion, I was told:
but no, it's not reliable, diesel is subject to expansion ... in formula 1 they do their weighing tests ... blablabla!

I answered :
yes, but if we warm up the engine and we try to be in the same conditions, cleanroom style of laboratory, applying best! with thermocouples to measure the diesel T ° at the sensor input and returns (therefore after the sensor); we can have a reduced margin of error ...


at worst having +/- 5% error is still huge :!:

so I pause the question, is there someone who has done reliable tests other than the pump from carrefour !!! ??? :?: : Lol:
can enlighten me :?:

thank you in advance. : Cheesy:

PS: of course with the flow we shint the diesel returns ... photo more diagram in not long! You'll tell me what you think about it
Link
uh ... I couldn't put the code on "conrad flowmeter" above : Oops: could a modo please?
0 x
"To do something is expensive, to do nothing will cost much more." Koffie Annan
next species endangered: Man ... and it will be good for him !!!
MAN IS A VERY DANGEROUS POLLUTION NATURAL!
User avatar
Flytox
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 14138
Registration: 13/02/07, 22:38
Location: Bayonne
x 839

Re: reliable consumption tests! flowmeter or weighing?




by Flytox » 09/07/07, 23:47

Hello Lio74
lio74 wrote:to introduce the trick, I represent an association officially created since April 18, 2007 which is called Aid for Sustainable Development (ADD for friends and family) : Lol:)


Super initiative .....

lio74 wrote:then by dint of discussion, I was told:
but no, it's not reliable, diesel is subject to expansion ... in formula 1 they do their weighing tests ... blablabla!

I answered :
yes, but if we warm up the engine and we try to be in the same conditions, cleanroom style of laboratory, applying best! with thermocouples to measure the diesel T ° at the sensor input and returns (therefore after the sensor); we can have a reduced margin of error ...


at worst having +/- 5% error is still huge :!:

so I pause the question, is there someone who has done reliable tests other than the pump from carrefour !!! ??? :?: : Lol:
can enlighten me :?:


On the test bench they measure the temperature and the density of the fuel (it looks like an acid battery weigher). After with a calculation they correct the calorific value.

For temperature you don't need huge precision
plus or minus 1 ° it's good. : Mrgreen:

With a float flow meter like I use, it is given at + or - 2% of the full scale. It exists even more precise even more expensive.

It is useless to have a diabolical precision on the consumption
if the other parameters are not also perfectly reproducible with the same idea in precision .....

A+
0 x
Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.
[Eugène Ionesco]
http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
Other
Pantone engine Researcher
Pantone engine Researcher
posts: 3787
Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
x 12




by Other » 10/07/07, 01:32

Hello

first eliminate the diesel return, loop the circuit close
the diesel line I pass it through a small interchange at the LDR
and with a thermometer with two displays and two probes I measure the temperature entering and leaving the exchanger. the greater the differential, the lower the consumption,
I have not calibrated the values, the only repair while driving is to have a large differential = low consumption, while driving you get used to it, even just monitoring the heat exchanger temperature output and a good repair.
It is not the precise consumption that interests us, but to know when we modify something if it makes a change ...
If you always measure the same vehicle it doesn't matter, but you start to compare one with the other you need good values.
Already measure precisely the km (the counters are variable from one to another) the full of gasiol also, depending on the foaming.
apart from a long journey and an 80 liters to reduce errors.

Andre
0 x
User avatar
elephant
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6646
Registration: 28/07/06, 21:25
Location: Charleroi, center of the world ....
x 7




by elephant » 10/07/07, 16:25

lio74 wrote:

we also installed a 3kW electro diesel group. it is a mono cylinder cylinder equipped with a GV in short of adjustment


you made some consumption measurements fixed charge before processing, at least,? pcq a GE at least we can reproduce the load in steady state.

example of fixed charge: some halogen spotlights, chandelier
almost all other loads are variable: washing machine, dryer, fridge, radiator with thermostat
0 x
elephant Supreme Honorary éconologue PCQ ..... I'm too cautious, not rich enough and too lazy to really save the CO2! http://www.caroloo.be
User avatar
Flytox
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 14138
Registration: 13/02/07, 22:38
Location: Bayonne
x 839




by Flytox » 10/07/07, 18:59

Hello André

Andre wrote:first eliminate the diesel return, loop the circuit close
the diesel line I pass it through a small interchange at the LDR
and with a thermometer with two displays and two probes I measure the temperature entering and leaving the exchanger. the greater the differential, the lower the consumption,


If you understood you correctly, in winters when your fuel is very cold, the temperature differential is greater with the Coolant.

And that's where you earn the most in percentage of consumption.
In summer the temperature difference is lower and the percentage improvement is lower.

The pipes between the injection pump and the injectors must be thermally insulated. They are long, thin with little flow, conductor of heat, subject to ventilation of the engine under the hood .... enough to lose a good part of the heat supplied upstream of the injection pump. :?:
0 x
Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.

[Eugène Ionesco]

http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
Other
Pantone engine Researcher
Pantone engine Researcher
posts: 3787
Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
x 12




by Other » 10/07/07, 20:54

Hello

If you understood you correctly, in winters when your fuel is very cold, the temperature differential is greater with the Coolant



No the differential depends on the quantity of liquid which passes in the small exchanger (I say very small)
The goal is not to heat the diesel but to measure the flow.
It is the principle of air flow mass and certain hot wire flow meter.

Andre
0 x
User avatar
lio74
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 333
Registration: 15/03/06, 23:16
Location: Haute-Vienne and SAVOY

Re: reliable consumption tests! flowmeter or weighing?




by lio74 » 10/07/07, 22:00

Flytox wrote:On the test bench they measure the temperature and the density of the fuel (it looks like an acid battery weigher). After with a calculation they correct the calorific value.


Hi everybody :D

well I don't have the camera at hand ... but here is the diagram where I will place the flow meter
https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/partager/schema_debitmetre.pdf
I have not corrected and added the T ° probes ... but it would be one before the flowmeter to correct the volume according to the T °!

density measurement, yes I see ... it's a pipette with a float and a rule to graduate in Baumer degree it seems !? but we still have to find the right one to measure diesel .... :?

on the link there is the description of the flow meter that I bought ...
accuracy +/- 2% already, 1000 pulses per liter
so I set the bike computer to diam = 1000mm. only I noticed that there is a factor of 10:
test with a 2L bottle and it tells me 23km traveled => 23L consumed. There should also be a small difference, because I weighed before testing and I had approximately 1,9L !! ?? but it does not matter since we proceed by difference, therefore with the same error ....

It is useless to have a diabolical precision on the consumption
if the other parameters are not also perfectly reproducible with the same idea in precision .....

A+


well, we still need a relatively drastic precision to quantify the gain in consumption! it is to present the proto and have funding ... we are already on an electrification project of a rural area in Togo ... so we must not pass for croquignoles, there are slanderous professors from the university behind, and I want to shut them up :!: : Cheesy:

it is on the other parameters are the feeling, so it will be necessary to measure the consumption on each next assembly!

For André:

I find it difficult to understand the functioning of your system ... but it seems to be a good indicator for you, on auto, and when you change certain parameters of your montages ...

Otherwise I think that finally I will put the flow meter under the water tank ... and I will make a standing tank, easy to weigh! I only miss the scales now ...

For elephant:

the thing is that we recovered an old broken down group, we repaired it but we have to redo the custom head gasket which has no origin :? ... and there I just saw with our mechanic and the schedule is taking a hold in the wing : Cry: so no test before mid August!
for charging we have a 1200W oil bath radiator (thermostat disconnected) and 2 500W site lights, which makes 57% of the group's power!
of course we will place ourselves under the same conditions for each test
-> original diesel
-> oil / diesel at 0, 30, 50, 70 and 100% with doping
to see what it looks like !!!
strongly the tests .... I can't wait any longer !!!

soon photos on a new post.

A+

PS: sorry for the pavement : Lol:
0 x
"To do something is expensive, to do nothing will cost much more." Koffie Annan

next species endangered: Man ... and it will be good for him !!!

MAN IS A VERY DANGEROUS POLLUTION NATURAL!
User avatar
elephant
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6646
Registration: 28/07/06, 21:25
Location: Charleroi, center of the world ....
x 7




by elephant » 10/07/07, 22:17

lio 74:

I can't wait to wait! Good luck ! May the force be with you :D
0 x
elephant Supreme Honorary éconologue PCQ ..... I'm too cautious, not rich enough and too lazy to really save the CO2! http://www.caroloo.be
User avatar
Flytox
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 14138
Registration: 13/02/07, 22:38
Location: Bayonne
x 839




by Flytox » 10/07/07, 23:20

Hello André
Andre wrote:No the differential depends on the quantity of liquid which passes in the small exchanger (I say very small)
The goal is not to heat the diesel but to measure the flow.
It is the principle of air flow mass and certain hot wire flow meter.


OK ! I didn't think about that at all .... this system is cute. This assumes that the temperature of the LDR does not move too much right?

A+
0 x
Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.

[Eugène Ionesco]

http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
User avatar
Flytox
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 14138
Registration: 13/02/07, 22:38
Location: Bayonne
x 839

Re: reliable consumption tests! flowmeter or weighing?




by Flytox » 11/07/07, 00:08

Hello Lio74
lio74 wrote:density measurement, yes I see ... it's a pipette with a float and a rule to graduate in Baumer degree it seems !? but we still have to find the right one to measure diesel .... :?


Hydrometers you can find graduated in g / l directly. You have to choose it in the density range of your fuel. I found some at

http://bioblock.com/pages/home.asp

lio74 wrote:it is on the other parameters are the feeling, so it will be necessary to measure the consumption on each next assembly!


Beware of not being judged on this .... To get by there is another 'statistical' method. If you are not precise, you can demonstrate that you are reliable.

It must be shown that x times strictly the same test produces results contained in a tolerance interval of so much .....

You can then announce your total uncertainty. If your tolerance interval is small compared to the gain that you announce it is all good. If it is as big or even more we will take you for a charlot whatever the quality of your work.

The "x" is expensive in time etc ... but it is all the more reliable the larger it is. :frown:

This manipulation works for tests that look alike, if the time after you double or divide by 2 the power you know your error more ...: Mrgreen:

A+
0 x
Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.

[Eugène Ionesco]

http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Water injection in the engines: the assembly and experimentation"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 177 guests