Water injection for diesel in Bolivia

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
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El boliviano
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Water injection for diesel in Bolivia




by El boliviano » 10/02/16, 21:13

Hello!

New on the forum (Finally registered a while ago), I read for a few days a lot of post (often old) on the water injection via Pantone system .. or not ... : Lol: : roll:

I am looking for clear info on the best system to install on of old diesel engines, most Toyota minibuses, to gain in consumption and pollution ..
Some engines are Atmo and others with turbo.

I thought to make reactors with a stainless steel rod or nickel-plated steel .. in a steel or copper tube .. (experiments on materials? :?: )

The bubblers, we have the choice, I saw several "assemblies" .. with exhaust gas or "fresh" air in input ..

With a heater via the LDR .. or not .. not sure if it is worth to heat the water .. some "cold fixtures" seem to work ..

The minibuses will evolve in a warm environment (I live in Bolivia ..) and the gain of conso is not more important than the gain in pollution .. (the liter of diesel is 0.27 € here ... No, do not do not cry, please think about all these big bacon that you feed when you are full, be supportive : Mrgreen: ).
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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by Flytox » 10/02/16, 22:02

Hello El boliviano, welcome.

I am looking for clear info on the best system to install on of old diesel engines, most Toyota minibuses, to gain in consumption and pollution ..
Some engines are Atmo and others with turbo.


It's hard to say: "this system is better than another". No one has really done an exhaustive comparison to be able to give clear and definitive conclusions. To be more sure of the result, it is better to copy as best as possible what a particular experimenter has successfully achieved on a "similar" engine.


I thought to make reactors with a stainless steel rod or nickel-plated steel .. in a steel or copper tube .. (experiments on materials? :?: )


The stainless steel rod is not bad. The copper reactor tube, not sure that this is a good idea as much for the mechanical resistance to hot as for the hot corrosion .. When one pulls a little bit on a Diesel, the exhaust gases rise to more than 500 ° C and the copper becomes very soft and will tear quickly. In addition to this temperature, the copper is covered with a thin film of black oxides. This layer does not fit in going away. The tube decreases the thickness of the heating cycle after the heating cycle until it is pierced ....


The bubblers, we have the choice, I saw several "assemblies" .. with exhaust gas or "fresh" air in input ..


Both can work well, the one with the exhaust has good trumps but gets bitchy at the big speed V and can get to plug the pipes at the levels of restrictions, sprinklers etc ... (In short, valid if the access and maintain it are easy).

With a heater via the LDR .. or not .. not sure if it is worth to heat the water .. some "cold fixtures" seem to work ..


I have not found any evidence yet that cold bubbler systems work. LDR reheating is very consistent in operation, but is more complicated to perform and slower at startup than other systems.

The minibuses will evolve in a warm environment (I live in Bolivia ..) and the gain of conso is not more important than the gain in pollution .. (the liter of diesel is 0.27 € here ... No, do not do not cry, please think about all these big bacon that you feed when you are full, be supportive : Mrgreen: ).


To improve the conso, it takes a little development, tests, readings, analyze, correct, modify .... For pollution it works quickly and the intake ducts to the valves are cleaned slowly but surely . The calamine / carbon deposits stuck to the valves eventually stop and we return to the original consumption of the vehicle (for old windmills a little adventures).
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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by El boliviano » 13/02/16, 18:38

Hello!

Thank you for the constructive response !!
So I continue my investigations ... 8)
Flytox wrote:The stainless steel rod is not bad. The copper reactor tube, not sure that this is a good idea as much for the mechanical resistance to hot as for the hot corrosion .. When one pulls a little bit on a Diesel, the exhaust gases rise to more than 500 ° C and the copper becomes very soft and will tear quickly. In addition to this temperature, the copper is covered with a thin film of black oxides. This layer does not fit in going away. The tube decreases the thickness of the heating cycle after the heating cycle until it is pierced ....


I found the possibility to make the reactor 100% INOX (Rod, tube, elbows ..)
It remains for me to know if I should weld the rod on the tube (centered) or if it is better to leave the rod "free" blocked by screwing the elbows.
I have at your disposal taps and dies for stainless steel in diameter 18,24, 32, ..
I was thinking of making 3 stainless steel welding points inside the tube at each end, then machining to have a passage for the rod.

With elbows 32mm FF (Female - Female) and threading tube 32 (24mm inside) I can do the length I want ..


Flytox wrote:Both can work well, the one with the exhaust has good trumps but gets bitchy at the big speed V and can get to plug the pipes at the levels of restrictions, sprinklers etc ... (In short, valid if the access and maintain it are easy).

So, we are going to opt for a "fresh air" bubbler with water heating via the LDR, because we have a hose which passes very close to the area where we think to put the bubbler.
On the other hand, we will "prick" the air inlet just after the air filter, because here, the air is quite "sandy" and it is better not to let too much sand enter the engine.

Flytox wrote:To improve the conso, it takes a little development, tests, readings, analyze, correct, modify .... For pollution it works quickly and the intake ducts to the valves are cleaned slowly but surely . The calamine / carbon deposits stuck to the valves eventually stop and we return to the original consumption of the vehicle (for old windmills a little adventures).


At the conso level, we have weekly readings of Km traveled, amount of diesel fuel, maintenance etc. by vehicle !! because it is closely followed (to avoid fuel theft among other things).
On a vehicle, we made the calculations of conso, we are at 19litres / 100Km over a period of 4 weeks with variations following the drivers from 17.8 to 20L / 100km
On another, same engine, but less km on the meter, we are at 22l / 100km.
So we have numbers to compare for the future. : roll:

For calamine, some are well loaded .. especially that the diesel here is not top quality .. so we should see the improvement .. : Mrgreen:
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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by Flytox » 14/02/16, 00:25

El boliviano wrote:I found the possibility to make the reactor 100% INOX (Rod, tube, elbows ..)
It remains for me to know if I should weld the rod on the tube (centered) or if it is better to leave the rod "free" blocked by screwing the elbows.
I have at your disposal taps and dies for stainless steel in diameter 18,24, 32, ..
I was thinking of making 3 stainless steel welding points inside the tube at each end, then machining to have a passage for the rod.

With elbows 32mm FF (Female - Female) and threading tube 32 (24mm inside) I can do the length I want ..


It is better to be able to disassemble the rod, it is easier to check what is happening, to remove the deposits of "tartar", to change the diameter, the play, the length etc ... and then chui not sure that the electrical continuity between the reactor body and the rod is a good thing.
It would seem that the most important thing is to stay with a rod / reactor air gap around 0.5 to 0.8 mm at the radius with a "reasonable" length (150 to 250 mm?). The rest is more a function of the dimensions. The reactor inlet is significantly more critical than the outlet and reacts more to changes / adjustments. This is where it happens and this is where you have to be able to access / modify / adjust / unmount easily.


On the other hand, we will "prick" the air inlet just after the air filter, because here, the air is quite "sandy" and it is better not to let too much sand enter the engine.


Poking the air after the air filter is a good idea but as it is a depression area, be careful that the flow of gas is in the right direction. In certain cases, you will need for example a venturi side admission / cylinder head for this sucks enough.



At the conso level, we have weekly readings of Km traveled, amount of diesel fuel, maintenance etc. by vehicle !! because it is closely followed (to avoid fuel theft among other things).
On a vehicle, we made the calculations of conso, we are at 19litres / 100Km over a period of 4 weeks with variations following the drivers from 17.8 to 20L / 100km
On another, same engine, but less km on the meter, we are at 22l / 100km.
So we have numbers to compare for the future. : roll:


Excellent!

[For calamine, some are well loaded .. especially that the diesel here is not top quality .. so we should see the improvement .. : Mrgreen:

On my R19, it took me between 1 and 3 full of diesel before "cleaning" the engine well (800 to 2000 km?) And that the black smoke when accelerating significantly diminished. Since then it has been maintained.
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Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.

[Eugène Ionesco]

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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by El boliviano » 14/02/16, 01:12

Flytox wrote:It is better to be able to disassemble the rod, it is easier to check what is happening, to remove the deposits of "tartar", to change the diameter, the play, the length etc ... and then chui not sure that the electrical continuity between the reactor body and the rod is a good thing.
It would seem that the most important thing is to stay with a rod / reactor air gap around 0.5 to 0.8 mm at the radius with a "reasonable" length (150 to 250 mm?). The rest is more a function of the dimensions. The reactor inlet is significantly more critical than the outlet and reacts more to changes / adjustments. This is where it happens and this is where you have to be able to access / modify / adjust / unmount easily.


I had "planned" for it to be removable.
At least one side will be screwed.

The diameters available in stainless steel tubes leave 1.5mm gap. (24-32 tube and 16-21 tube, ie 3mm difference, 1.5mm on each side)
If I take 16-21 as outside, I have to find a 15 rod or 14mm of diam.

What would be mine, according to you?

Because I did not find any information on the importance of the "solid" rod VS "hollow" rod.

For the length, we have a "straight" area and a little larger in diameter of 30cm, so I had thought of making a hole of 250mm x 45mm in which the reactor will enter, fixed to a curved plate which will come to "fill" this hole .. all held by clamps (stainless steel) and sealing provided by the exhaust gasket paste.
Thus, it will be relatively easy to interchange the reactors for testing.

Flytox wrote:Poking the air after the air filter is a good idea but as it is a depression area, be careful that the flow of gas is in the right direction. In certain cases, you will need for example a venturi side admission / cylinder head for this sucks enough.


Yes, I thought about it, it is planned to reduce the diameter a little before the "pecking" where the output of the reactor will be injected, in order to have a venturi effect.

I even thought of making a brass venturi for this arrival.

Flytox wrote:On my R19, it took me between 1 and 3 full of diesel before "cleaning" the engine well (800 to 2000 km?) And that the black smoke when accelerating significantly diminished. Since then it has been maintained.


2000km? in a week and a half .. we will be fixed ... : Mrgreen: : roll:
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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by Flytox » 14/02/16, 13:51

El boliviano wrote:The diameters available in stainless steel tubes leave 1.5mm gap. (24-32 tube and 16-21 tube, ie 3mm difference, 1.5mm on each side)
If I take 16-21 as outside, I have to find a 15 rod or 14mm of diam.

What would be mine, according to you?


You did not give us the characteristics of your engines; displacement, atmospheric, turbo, etc ...

Some experimenters say that when there is too much play (beyond 1 mm at the radius) it does not work. For trucks (larger displacement), it is better to aim for a larger rod diameter, the annular passage section between the rod and the reactor body will be greater and will allow the gases to pass more easily. As I understand the trick, when the air gap is small the "efficiency" to "transform" the "steam" increases, on the other hand the pressure drop increases a lot and the steam flow may no longer be sufficient to supply the engine. You have to find some kind of compromise between quality and quantity.
By and large for the outside diameter of the reactor, it should not correspond to exceeding the 1 / 3 of the original exhaust section.


Because I did not find any information on the importance of the "solid" rod VS "hollow" rod.

Apparently, from what I could read or experiment on the subject, the hollow stems do not bring anything or work less well.
(Copper tube cored with steel cables or stainless steel cable, or ferrite, or graphite, or LDR).

For the length, we have a "straight" zone and a little larger in diameter of 30cm, so I had thought of making a hole of 250mm x 45mm in which the reactor will enter, fixed to a curved plate which will come to "fill" this hole .. all held by clamps (stainless steel) and the sealing provided by paste at the exhaust gasket.
Thus, it will be relatively easy to interchange the reactors for testing.


When you talk 30 cm in diameter, it is a silencer or pot of relaxation, catalyst, or exhaust pipe at the exit of the cylinder head? : Shock:
In any case, 250 * 45 is a hell of a cut! It could crack / break quickly, you have to study the "closure" with your curved plate, like by rounding the corners with a file. (see crobar below)
If you have the option, the reactor should be as close as possible to the valves / cylinder head to get the most out of the exhaust gas temperature.

crack.jpg
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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by El boliviano » 14/02/16, 16:10

Flytox wrote:You did not give us the characteristics of your engines; displacement, atmospheric, turbo, etc ...

These are 4000CC (+/-), Diesel, Atmo for the most part, 6 cylinders in lines.

Flytox wrote:Some experimenters say that when there is too much play (beyond 1 mm at the radius) it does not work. For trucks (larger displacement), it is better to aim for a larger rod diameter, the annular passage section between the rod and the reactor body will be greater and will allow the gases to pass more easily. As I understand the trick, when the air gap is small the "efficiency" to "transform" the "steam" increases, on the other hand the pressure drop increases a lot and the steam flow may no longer be sufficient to supply the engine. You have to find some kind of compromise between quality and quantity.
By and large for the outside diameter of the reactor, it should not correspond to exceeding the 1 / 3 of the original exhaust section.


OK, so I need to find a way to either "grow" the 16-21 tube or I need to find a solid 22mm or larger rod that I can spin.

The diameter of the exhaust is +/- 90mm, so if we speak on the surface, we are far from the 1 / 3 with a diam 32. but a little more if we speak in diameter. :?

Flytox wrote:When you talk 30 cm in diameter, it is a silencer or pot of relaxation, catalyst, or exhaust pipe at the exit of the cylinder head? : Shock:
In any case, 250 * 45 is a hell of a cut! It could crack / break quickly, you have to study the "closure" with your curved plate, like by rounding the corners with a file. (see crobar below)
If you have the option, the reactor should be as close as possible to the valves / cylinder head to get the most out of the exhaust gas temperature.

30cm is the length of the right side of the exhaust just after the manifold, and has a diameter of +/- 90mm a little bulging. : roll:
Further, in the bends, it is +/- 70mm.

For cutting, yes, I thought 4 holes in the corners, joined by the cuts to have rounded corners. 8)
If I make a smaller cut, I'm afraid I can not enter the reactor if I decide to make it bigger or bigger ... : roll:
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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by Flytox » 14/02/16, 21:21

El boliviano wrote:OK, so I need to find a way to either "grow" the 16-21 tube or I need to find a solid 22mm or larger rod that I can spin.

Yes.

The diameter of the exhaust is +/- 90mm, so if we speak on the surface, we are far from the 1 / 3 with a diam 32. but a little more if we speak in diameter. :?

It is an order of magnitude (on the surface) to prevent the engine from heating up or messing around when there is too much pressure in the exhaust. The idea is that when you do not inject more steam (empty water tank etc ...), it is necessary that the assembly is transparent for the perfos.

30cm is the length of the right side of the exhaust just after the manifold, and has a diameter of +/- 90mm a little bulging. : roll:
Further, in the bends, it is +/- 70mm.

I did not understand your sentence : Mrgreen:

For cutting, yes, I thought 4 holes in the corners, joined by the cuts to have rounded corners. 8)
If I make a smaller cut, I'm afraid I can not enter the reactor if I decide to make it bigger or bigger ... : roll:

You can also make a cut for example 33 mm * 250 mm for a reactor of 32 mm, just the bare necessities, that you can possibly enlarge after. (If it's not too expensive to disassemble) because to remove 45 mm 90 it seems to me much ..... to not finish free on the road after 100 km. : Mrgreen:

You have pictures of the engine / vehicle etc ... :D
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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by El boliviano » 14/02/16, 23:34

Flytox wrote:You have pictures of the engine / vehicle etc ... :D


There, right now, no! : roll:

Weekend, I will make photos of the gear ... 8)

One of the mechanics told me that there was an "rab '" exhaust pipe in the depot to test the opening and' introduction 'of the reactor ...

After, must see on the spot, if it passes without having to deposit the tube.

We are thinking of setting up the first one in March,

I have a little pressure, because half of the guys are more than skeptical that water in the engine can improve combustion, consumption without "rusting" or killing the engine .... : Shock:
But the positive side is that two mechanics have done research on their side and found lots of positive info .. and they are super motivated to do the tests ...
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Re: Pantone for Diesel




by Flytox » 15/02/16, 19:36

El boliviano wrote:I have a little pressure, because half of the guys are more than skeptical that water in the engine can improve combustion, consumption without "rusting" or killing the engine .... : Shock:

For rust / destruction / corrosion of the exhaust it is nothing to report !!! The exhaust hanger has been modified x times (4 tubes used in total) it is not representative, but all the "end" of the pot, trigger, silencer etc ... has not changed in 8 years. .... Yes, it's less sooty than before :)

For the high engine, the intake manifold has not moved (may be a little less fat, finally it depends on where I get the recirculation pipe of the low engine oil). The intake valve shanks of 2 cylinders on 4 are significantly cleaner than the other 2 (uneven vapor distribution !?) and very clean for a non-disassembled engine of over 300000 km.

To not kill the engine, you have to think about piping so that it never has the opportunity to swallow a flush of liquid water at once by siphoning etc .... He hiccups: Buuurpppss !!! like a big mischief, shaking the car, but do not insist, lift the foot immediately ..... : Mrgreen:
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Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.

[Eugène Ionesco]

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