Pac or gas condensation?

[gisier]

Hello,
our wood frame house project with cladding needs to find its heating mode. Only since several days of research I still do not have the answer to the question that I ask myself:

what is the best "economical" solution in terms of heating between an air-water heat pump and a gas condensing boiler (possible underfloor heating for both)?

Between the initial investment, the price of kw (that of gas continues to increase), I really do not know what to choose. we read everything and its opposite.

My hot water production will be provided by the gas boiler or an electric balloon depending on the choice.

I will not go on solar or wood.

Our house will be located in the north (59) with super insulation (r = 5 walls and ceilings), it is about 150m² with attic. In the north, it also means that a pac will need an extra for the big cold days.

(One solution like the other does not seem ecological I know)

Thank you for your answers and feedback.

[I Citro]

Electricity, gas or other, energy prices will experience substantial increases in the coming years ...

Investing in inexpensive solutions that allow you to modulate on various boards can be a good idea ...
(rersible air split less than 1000 € + insert or pellet stove less than 2000 €, for example)

When I see the proposals of PAC to flower 20.000 €, I wonder how we can amortize such amounts.

[Christophe]

When I see the proposals of PAC to flower 20.000 €, I wonder how we can amortize such amounts.

Maybe because a large part of the bill is paid by "others" (tax credit, subsidy ...) in short "us" all ... who pay taxes or / and taxes ...

And when I read this: https://www.econologie.com/forums/7-mois-par ... t9743.html
I'm a little bit crazy ...

[minguinhirigue]

Hello,

already congratulations for the insulation of the house, R = 5 is not bad.

To heat your 150 m², you thought of:
- aerothermal heat pump
- a gas condensing boiler.

To compare between the two, in the north, the choice is quickly made, it will be gas condensation, even if the price of gas can still climb.

You put your finger on a problem, the cover of your heating need in winter! The COP of the PAC collapses, it is necessary a secondary source of heating ...

Second problem, if we talk about ecology, it is that the electricity consumption of the CAP. If it is not offset by a renewable energy source, in France, the CAP is not that interesting.

The third, raised several times in the forum, the investment cost of PAC ...

If PAC, there is, I can only advise you to search the side of water-water PAC ... but it needs access to a water table and a small initial investment or CAP on stale air: At home Oschner for example.

On the other hand, I am really surprised by your categorical refusal of wood and solar panels.

For wood I think it's handling and storage that worry you ...
Know that if you have a minimum surface around, there are pellet boilers that require hardly more care than a gas boiler (see products ÖkoFEN), and with a fuel price significantly less subject to fluctuation (cf. Pellets and wood pellets).

For solar, I do not know if this is the aspect that worries you or prejudices about photovoltaics, but thermal panels are a mature, ecological and economical technology ...

One last product that may interest you, remains to validate the prices: GAZ boiler for domestic micro-cogeneration.

Good luck in your research.

PS: the old ones of écono, a little calm, you will scare the new ...

[I Citro]

Thanks for the links, minguinhirigue.

You have price ranges for:
- The De Dietrich cogeneration wall gas boiler.
- The CAP on stale air Oschner.

Beautiful articles that deserve to be democratized.

[dedeleco]

In agreement with the previous remarks, I do not understand the refusal of wood!
A well insulated house requires less power and so it seems to me to be worth a bi-energy system, an autonomous long-term like pellets or gas (cheap investment for gas) in case of absence and heating wood to protect against the big energy price changes for the future:
oil, gas, electricity, will follow in the future, even pellets, question of supply and demand!

On the contrary we throw wood and vegetable waste shamelessly (size of hedges, gardens, forests, abandoned after storms, as 1999 end and Landes recently, yet free!) I am even scared by the practical impossibility of burning them easily in a pellet stove with great autonomy as for gas (years without maintenance!).

Also a complement of free heating using these varied woods seems to me crucial, like a boiler dual granules, wooden log, (rare) like that of SHT sold by Rika in France.
Flexibility und Perfektion - thermodual TDA
http://www.sht.at/index.php?id=175#c196
http://www.sht.at/fileadmin/user_upload ... al-Web.pdf
http://www.sht.at/index.php?id=82
http://www.sht.at/index.php?

problem, all these types of beautiful boilers are German or Austrian !!
We throw our green energy from gardens and forests, for the benefit of nuclear, until the next Chernobyl! !!

[gisier]

Thank you for your quick and thoughtful answers to my problem.

I do not repel the wood at this point once here and there ok, but not everyday and saw the winter we had; no thanks. I think you can actually install a stove later if the price of other energies explodes.

When I posted this question I immediately consulted the prices of a pellet boiler and that confirmed to me what I had seen some time ago, it is expensive, more expensive than a pac (air / water). In addition I have planned space in my garages but not so much for the silo. if you tell me it's not that expensive, I could change my plans for the silo.
Same for solar, I have an appriori on investment prices and my wife is not too hot to the idea (aesthetic).

To read you I still have to confirm some prices, if not resign myself to gas?

[chatelot16]

One last product that may interest you, remains to validate the prices: GAZ boiler for domestic micro-cogeneration.

interesting: google finds it:
http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&source=we ... 8MToQbo58A

but it does not inspire me confidence: it seems to be still research

they present a future fuel cell electric boiler, future too far

the electric boiler has stirling seems closer, but in this document dietrich is a piston free stirling: why look for so much complication while stirling a crankshaft have already been proven

at home I have an electrogenic boiler that works every day! it is a real generator made in china transformed into forced air heating has carburetor modified to walk on gas, butane gas or methane gasifier

these small group are at 170euro when there is promotion

alas it is not perfect, it's difficult to soundproof ... but for a builder who has the means it would be easy to make a good silent and solid generator for cogeneration cheaper than these boiler has stirling for econologogo

with a good genset methane there will be more to choose between gas and cogeneration: the 2 at once my adjutant!

the methane feeds the generator the lost heat of the group heats the house a bit, the electricity of the group supplies the heat pump and heats even more

Another remark I am not against the principle of heat pumps, what I find a pity is the huge price of the good instalation: I see only the technique and what one could do well: alas I am horrified to see what is selling ...

[Did67]

Maybe because a large part of the bill is paid by "others" (tax credit, subsidy ...) in short "us" all ...

This is less and less true: PAC air-something is no longer eligible; the tax credit rates are also reduced ...

Still, marketing is "hard" ... And beware of those who do not think!

[Did67]

One last product that may interest you, remains to validate the prices: GAZ boiler for domestic micro-cogeneration.

...: D

In the same vein :

http://www.sunmachine.fr/download/plaka ... ineGaz.pdf

But to my knowledge, no specific resale tariff for electricity, as is the case for wind power or photovoltaic power, suddenly, in France, these machines seem to me very difficult to amortize (unlike others countries which have an advantageous "cogeneration" feed-in tariff) ...

If there was that, it would be an "elegant" solution!