Perpetual, supernumerary and gratis. PAC + STIRLING

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
User avatar
esgege
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 55
Registration: 26/11/08, 20:41
Location: French-speaking Switzerland

Perpetual, supernumerary and gratis. PAC + STIRLING




by esgege » 13/12/08, 17:09

Hello,

Heat pump
Mechanical power absorbed by the compressor: 1 Kw
Returned thermal power: 5 Kw

Stirling engine
Mechanical power of the Stirling: 2 Kw (5 Kw * 40%)
Mechanical residual power available 1 Kw (2 kw - 1 Kw compressor PAC)
Residual thermal power available: 3 Kw

Image

The coefficient of performance (known as COP)… can reach 5 to 7 in summer.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompe_%C3%A0_chaleur


The Stirling engine performs well: it can be around 40%
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moteur_Stirling#Avantages

If it doesn't work, tell me why!
If it works, why don't we do it?
0 x
Let us say and do well
the middle
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 4075
Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
x 4




by the middle » 13/12/08, 17:19

: Cheesy: pcq it does not do the business of my boss ... Total.
Unfortunately, it's that simple.
Total, and the others ...
Why did the future ex-president of the EU (Sarcoléon) persuade Poland to change its future energy policy? (in the context of the future green Europe :D )
Simply to sell France's know-how in nuclear power plants ... :?
It’s money that runs, not common sense.
Well, sometimes there is a little bit of positive : Cheesy:
PS, me too, I love this stirling.
0 x
Man is by nature a political animal (Aristotle)
User avatar
esgege
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 55
Registration: 26/11/08, 20:41
Location: French-speaking Switzerland




by esgege » 13/12/08, 17:25

Hi lejustemilieu,

I know who you are, I read the whole subject of the ball burner!
63 pages!

Bravo for your realization ...

I had to leave my house and I can tinker as before : Cry:

So I give an idea to those who can
0 x
Let us say and do well
User avatar
Gregconstruct
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 1781
Registration: 07/11/07, 19:55
Location: Amay Belgium




by Gregconstruct » 13/12/08, 17:45

It's great to share your ideas! Image
0 x
Every action counts for our planet !!!
dirk pitt
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2081
Registration: 10/01/08, 14:16
Location: isere
x 68




by dirk pitt » 13/12/08, 18:04

no one to lift the glove?
where is the fault in the reasoning? because there is a fault.
0 x
Image
Click my signature
User avatar
esgege
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 55
Registration: 26/11/08, 20:41
Location: French-speaking Switzerland




by esgege » 13/12/08, 18:10

dirk pitt wrote:no one to lift the glove?
where is the fault in the reasoning? because there is a fault.


flaw there is no ...

The "surplus" of energy is drawn from the environment (the principle of a heat pump)

It's true that it does not shake up the crowds ...

They are all already at their torches :P

or at INPI : Mrgreen:
0 x
Let us say and do well
User avatar
Remundo
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 16093
Registration: 15/10/07, 16:05
Location: Clermont Ferrand
x 5233




by Remundo » 13/12/08, 18:38

Hello everyone,

Good idea Esgege, in any case intriguing, I admit that I myself let my neurons wander along this path.

There is no surunity.

Overall the association {PAC + Stirling} is nothing other than a large machinery operating between the ground and the air:
- the ground being in winter is warmer than the air, but it also works in summer with super hot air and very cold ground.
- This large machinery performs a QSolAir heat transfer between air and soil and delivers mechanical energy W = WStirling - WPAC

In fact, once started, the machine operates without external input, and operates between a hot and cold source, and delivers W mecha.

To sum up, as soon as there is a deltaT between the air and the ground, there is a little mechanical energy to take proportional to QsolAir.

The thermomechanical yield is then limited by that of Carnot.

The heat pump is only used for heating so that the Stirling has rapid heat exchanges and runs well. Otherwise, Stirlings with very very large heat exchangers would be necessary (small deltaTs limit thermal conduction per unit area ...).

But in the end, the mechanical energy recovered W = (Wstirling-WPAC) does not exceed the heat transfer between the ground and the atmosphere multiplied by:
* 1-Tsol / Tair if the ground is colder than the air
* 1-Tair / Tsol if the ground is warmer than the air

Valid for absolute temperatures (in Kelvin): So for 20K around 273K (0 ° C) difference, the yield between the mecha extract and the heat transfer is: roughly 1-273 / 300 = 9%

And this limit is ideal because any theoretical : in practice, losses mean that there is less than 5% yield for Stirling with minideltaT: ditto for this PAC + Stirling installation.

Otherwise, your Stirling yield of 40% is too optimistic because it corresponds to the heat supplied by a COP5 heat pump. However a COP5 supposes a very low temperature which in return can only give at best 1/5 in engine efficiency, i.e. less than 20% ...

A bit technical and complicated, sorry : Idea:
0 x
Image
User avatar
esgege
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 55
Registration: 26/11/08, 20:41
Location: French-speaking Switzerland




by esgege » 13/12/08, 18:46

er ...

It can work or not,

At work we have cold type turbo machines that have a COP of 7!
(System per evaporation tower)

So even if the Stirling does not have 40% ...
: Shock:
0 x
Let us say and do well
User avatar
Remundo
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 16093
Registration: 15/10/07, 16:05
Location: Clermont Ferrand
x 5233




by Remundo » 13/12/08, 19:01

We will place ourselves in the ideal case of our good old Sadi (que) Carnot.

Let's say you have a COP7 between 273 and 313 ° (313 / (313-273)

Let's say you use 40 ° C with a cold source at -5 °, or 268K

Your engine efficiency will be 1- 268/313 = 14,4%

or about 1/7.

You can do the same calculations with a COP of 5, you will have little more than 20% for Stirling. And here, we are completely theoretical because no friction / losses are taken into account ... : Idea:

For your Stirling to work at 40%, it would require a heat pump a lot and its COP drops.

The product COP x engine output = approximately 1
0 x
Image
User avatar
esgege
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 55
Registration: 26/11/08, 20:41
Location: French-speaking Switzerland




by esgege » 13/12/08, 19:16

So if I understand correctly, the higher the COP, the worse the Stirling's performance?

But if have made 14% * 7 it does 102.9 is a gain of 2.9%, it does not cover friction : Cry:
0 x
Let us say and do well

Back to "hydraulic, wind, geothermal, marine energy, biogas ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 194 guests