Hello,
Not sure to be in the right place but I try the same. I need advice for a project.
Small description:
We want to preheat the heating water tank with a wind turbine. The current heating is gas and we want to reduce the consumption as much as possible.
The type of wind turbine is not badly decided but it remains to define the electrical part is equipment, storage (if necessary), transport and security.
The first question that gets me stuck is: can a direct current, produced in an irregular way (vs wind) can be transformed directly into thermal energy with a heating element which works normally on the 220 or else does it take a particular heating element? If so, where can we find that. The house is located in Saint-Denis d'Anjou, between Angers and Sablé sur Sarthe. We would like to avoid having to use Inverter / regulator for questions of performance and therefore costs.
Your ideas, comments, rants are welcome
Thank you
Preheating by wind
Hello CyrilR!
Yes it is possible to use the energy of the wind turbine to heat a hot water tank but if you can give us the model of wind turbine it would help us greatly to know what type of installation you need.
At the risk of repeating what has been said many times on this site, solar heating will give a much better performance than a wind turbine for heating water that requires a lot of energy, unless you have a large capacity wind turbine .
A+
Yes it is possible to use the energy of the wind turbine to heat a hot water tank but if you can give us the model of wind turbine it would help us greatly to know what type of installation you need.
At the risk of repeating what has been said many times on this site, solar heating will give a much better performance than a wind turbine for heating water that requires a lot of energy, unless you have a large capacity wind turbine .
A+
0 x
Stepping behind sometimes can strengthen friendship.
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
-
chatelot16
- Econologue expert
- posts: 6960
- Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
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anything is possible ... any direct or alternating current can heat a resistor ... just do not exceed the maximum voltage so as not to burn out the resistor ... if the voltage is lower, it heats less but it heats anyway
remains to specify which wind turbine, to make the 1000 or 2000W that is often used in water heaters you need a large wind turbine that may be too expensive to be profitable to heat water
remains to specify which wind turbine, to make the 1000 or 2000W that is often used in water heaters you need a large wind turbine that may be too expensive to be profitable to heat water
0 x
Hello
I know a guy who has a big wind turbine to heat his domestic water one (cascade 60) it works in continuous current the fault if you keep all the standard thermostats of the 220 volts AC tank the thermostat contacts do not resite well in DC despite that it is not an inductive load.
the other defect given the large dimensions of the wind power when the wind is blowing hard it installed a charging system (additional resistors to charge the generator and moderate its speed
(simple solution to protect her from overspeed)
Andre
chatelot16 wrote:anything is possible ... any direct or alternating current can heat a resistor ... just do not exceed the maximum voltage so as not to burn out the resistor ... if the voltage is lower, it heats less but it heats anyway
I know a guy who has a big wind turbine to heat his domestic water one (cascade 60) it works in continuous current the fault if you keep all the standard thermostats of the 220 volts AC tank the thermostat contacts do not resite well in DC despite that it is not an inductive load.
the other defect given the large dimensions of the wind power when the wind is blowing hard it installed a charging system (additional resistors to charge the generator and moderate its speed
(simple solution to protect her from overspeed)
Andre
0 x
Hello everybody
Thank you for your answers.
The make and model of wind turbine are not yet selected but the type yes. It will be a type with vertical axis. It will be installed on a large barn roof. Several have already attracted attention. There is this one: http: //www.noveol.com/index.php? P = noveolienne and this one http://www.gual-statoeolien.com/statoeolien.html. There are a few others but these are the two models that are in our sights. Your opinion on this subject interests us of course but we will stay with this type there because of the site and the kind of winter winds that there is in this region.
Solar has been abandoned due to the winter climate in Mayenne. Little sun and lots of winds.
If I understand correctly, we can therefore use the electrical elements of an ordinary water heater provided we find thermostats suitable for direct current.
Question: The electrical elements of an ordinary water heater being of a fairly `` robust '' steel, won't it risk not heating at all until a certain wind speed is reached? and if so in this case, shouldn't we also adapt the heating resistors to a DC and irregular current, if it exists ...?
Thank you
Thank you for your answers.
The make and model of wind turbine are not yet selected but the type yes. It will be a type with vertical axis. It will be installed on a large barn roof. Several have already attracted attention. There is this one: http: //www.noveol.com/index.php? P = noveolienne and this one http://www.gual-statoeolien.com/statoeolien.html. There are a few others but these are the two models that are in our sights. Your opinion on this subject interests us of course but we will stay with this type there because of the site and the kind of winter winds that there is in this region.
Solar has been abandoned due to the winter climate in Mayenne. Little sun and lots of winds.
If I understand correctly, we can therefore use the electrical elements of an ordinary water heater provided we find thermostats suitable for direct current.
Question: The electrical elements of an ordinary water heater being of a fairly `` robust '' steel, won't it risk not heating at all until a certain wind speed is reached? and if so in this case, shouldn't we also adapt the heating resistors to a DC and irregular current, if it exists ...?
Thank you
0 x
Hello Cyril!
The second link in my opinion will perform better!
To control the resistance there are electronic relays provided to oscillate avoiding the poor reliability of normal thermostat contact, by varying the oscillation you can control the speed of your wind turbine to avoid runaway and also braking in weak winds.
A small, relatively simple electronic assembly can thus satisfy all wind forces.
The other simpler solution to re-acquire for an uninitiated is to incorporate batteries at the outlet of the wind turbine with its regulation supplied followed by an inverter which will supply the balloon's resistances and with the built-in protection of the inverter which aims to avoid over-discharging the batteries, you add a simple timer (switch-on times) which creates a delay on the heating supply to the resistors while recharging the batteries to avoid oscillation of the inverter (on shutdown) due to the low energy supplied by the wind turbine in light winds.
Are you from Quebec or France?
I do not know Quebec in France or Mayenne in Quebec !!!
The second link in my opinion will perform better!
To control the resistance there are electronic relays provided to oscillate avoiding the poor reliability of normal thermostat contact, by varying the oscillation you can control the speed of your wind turbine to avoid runaway and also braking in weak winds.
A small, relatively simple electronic assembly can thus satisfy all wind forces.
The other simpler solution to re-acquire for an uninitiated is to incorporate batteries at the outlet of the wind turbine with its regulation supplied followed by an inverter which will supply the balloon's resistances and with the built-in protection of the inverter which aims to avoid over-discharging the batteries, you add a simple timer (switch-on times) which creates a delay on the heating supply to the resistors while recharging the batteries to avoid oscillation of the inverter (on shutdown) due to the low energy supplied by the wind turbine in light winds.
Are you from Quebec or France?
I do not know Quebec in France or Mayenne in Quebec !!!
0 x
Stepping behind sometimes can strengthen friendship.
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
Criticism is good if added to some compliments.
Alain
With your wind turbine, you are obliged to install a regulator, with anti-runaway protection. The operation is simple: when you do not consume electricity and the wind turbine turns too fast because there is wind, the excess power is dissipated in a resistance, which slows down the wind turbine and prevents it from s 'wrap.
The resistance may well be that of a water heater.
On the other hand, the thermostat will be a little subtle: as there must always be a resistance available to protect the wind turbine, when there is a lot of wind, it is impossible to stop heating! So the thermostat will have to switch between the "official" load resistance of the wind turbine, and that of the water heater.
It might be easier to buy the complete system with the inverter, which has another advantage: once the water heater is hot, you can feed the rest of your barrack with ...
Otherwise, a resistance does not care about the shape of the current that you send in, continuous or not, it does not matter. Only the RMS voltage counts. Your water heater resistance is given (let's say) for 1500W at 230VAC (RMS). If you send it 230VDC it will produce 1500W. By cons if you send him 100VDC, it will produce much less heat (P = V² / R).
You can also power a heat pump with your wind turbine, but you need a very stable and sufficient current, the machines do not like variable power supplies at all ...
The resistance may well be that of a water heater.
On the other hand, the thermostat will be a little subtle: as there must always be a resistance available to protect the wind turbine, when there is a lot of wind, it is impossible to stop heating! So the thermostat will have to switch between the "official" load resistance of the wind turbine, and that of the water heater.
It might be easier to buy the complete system with the inverter, which has another advantage: once the water heater is hot, you can feed the rest of your barrack with ...
Otherwise, a resistance does not care about the shape of the current that you send in, continuous or not, it does not matter. Only the RMS voltage counts. Your water heater resistance is given (let's say) for 1500W at 230VAC (RMS). If you send it 230VDC it will produce 1500W. By cons if you send him 100VDC, it will produce much less heat (P = V² / R).
You can also power a heat pump with your wind turbine, but you need a very stable and sufficient current, the machines do not like variable power supplies at all ...
0 x
Hello,
First thank you for your participation. Even if I don't share all your ideas, it forces me to question myself and it's always good in this kind of project.
The issue of regulator and anti-runaway protection should be resolved with a self-regulating wind turbine, for example by a rotary wing system combined with a spring regulation system. In all cases, it will be a Darrius type wind turbine because even if the efficiency VS a blade wind turbine is lower, it has other advantages which make that this is what we will most likely choose.
The thermostat, to think about it again, it will not be of the type found on a Cascade, ie plated on the surface of the tank and which works on the 220. It will be of the type which is immersed in hot water directly and in this case, they are 24 VDC most of the time, at least that's what I have on my current heating system. I therefore believe (perhaps wrongly) that it will be much less sensitive to variations in current. Correct me if im wrong.
For the safety of the wind turbine, I thought of something like the clutch of an industrial sewing machine motor. When it is necessary to stop the production of heat, the clutch disengages, the wind turbine turns to no load and the resistance does not heat any more. Now, to tweak everything, it's going to take a good mechanic. If you know of any in Mayenne, I am interested.
An inverter-charge regulator kit coupled or not with batteries, my idea is pretty well done on this and, left as it is, it will be no. We prefer to work with the product current, even variable and irregular as long as it heats up.
It therefore condemns us to forget the power supply of the house and projects like the heat pump. In any case, I am not focused on electrical-battery-electronic equipment, and I will try to avoid this as much as possible. I'm more in favor of mechanical systems. I find it preferable to have a system that works mechanically rather than electrically, damage is more rare and maintenance less expensive because we can do it ourselves.
I have to specify a project variable:
I live in Quebec, and the project will be carried out in France. My father (in France) decided late (80 years) to start this project except that it is a techno-resistant (no computer, so no Net) but a hell of a hacker. I inherited his hack genetics but added the Internet to my obsession, not him.
So I plan the project from here and he will carry it out (in France) a well drawn move. Here.
Thank you again for your comments. I appreciate them.
CYRIL
First thank you for your participation. Even if I don't share all your ideas, it forces me to question myself and it's always good in this kind of project.
The issue of regulator and anti-runaway protection should be resolved with a self-regulating wind turbine, for example by a rotary wing system combined with a spring regulation system. In all cases, it will be a Darrius type wind turbine because even if the efficiency VS a blade wind turbine is lower, it has other advantages which make that this is what we will most likely choose.
The thermostat, to think about it again, it will not be of the type found on a Cascade, ie plated on the surface of the tank and which works on the 220. It will be of the type which is immersed in hot water directly and in this case, they are 24 VDC most of the time, at least that's what I have on my current heating system. I therefore believe (perhaps wrongly) that it will be much less sensitive to variations in current. Correct me if im wrong.
For the safety of the wind turbine, I thought of something like the clutch of an industrial sewing machine motor. When it is necessary to stop the production of heat, the clutch disengages, the wind turbine turns to no load and the resistance does not heat any more. Now, to tweak everything, it's going to take a good mechanic. If you know of any in Mayenne, I am interested.
An inverter-charge regulator kit coupled or not with batteries, my idea is pretty well done on this and, left as it is, it will be no. We prefer to work with the product current, even variable and irregular as long as it heats up.
It therefore condemns us to forget the power supply of the house and projects like the heat pump. In any case, I am not focused on electrical-battery-electronic equipment, and I will try to avoid this as much as possible. I'm more in favor of mechanical systems. I find it preferable to have a system that works mechanically rather than electrically, damage is more rare and maintenance less expensive because we can do it ourselves.
I have to specify a project variable:
I live in Quebec, and the project will be carried out in France. My father (in France) decided late (80 years) to start this project except that it is a techno-resistant (no computer, so no Net) but a hell of a hacker. I inherited his hack genetics but added the Internet to my obsession, not him.
So I plan the project from here and he will carry it out (in France) a well drawn move. Here.
Thank you again for your comments. I appreciate them.
CYRIL
0 x
CYRILR wrote:I therefore believe (perhaps wrongly) that it will be much less sensitive to variations in current. Correct me if im wrong.
Yes, it will be the same.
Can you post the characteristics of the wind turbine, in particular the curve which gives the power produced according to the wind speed and the load which is connected to it?
CYRILR wrote:For the safety of the wind turbine, I thought of something like the clutch of an industrial sewing machine motor. When it is necessary to stop the production of heat, the clutch disengages, the wind turbine turns to no load and the resistance does not heat any more.
If the thermostat cuts the heating, then the load on the alternator will be very low and it will not oppose the wind turbine. If the wind turbine does not run away by design, then the clutch is not used nothing, no need to complicate your life.
> I find it preferable to have a system that works mechanically rather
> electrically, damage is rarer and maintenance less expensive because
> we can do it ourselves.
Personally, electronics don't bother me because that's my field. But if the "target audience" is mechanically savvy, then you have to play on its strengths and I completely agree! ...
0 x
Hello,
So if I understand correctly, who says thermostat says `` obligatorily and minimally '' batteries to supply the thermostat with 24vdc stable and constant electricity.
Is this really an essential condition?
Couldn't the thermostat be supplied with ERDF?
One of my goals is to minimize investment both in terms of wind generation and transformation-distribution. So I'm trying to avoid anything that can `` eat '' the output between the output from the wind turbine and the heating element (and I know it goes fast) a little 5% here, another 15% there and I may end up in the end needing to double the production capacity for the same result. Produce, transform and distribute at a cost and I cultivate my natural greed to try to reduce it as much as possible
The “target audience” is more comfortable in mechanics than in electronics. Must do with the resources available
For the characteristics of the wind turbine, I found it here:
http://www.gual-statoeolien.com/Doctech.pdf
It's pretty minimalist but that's all I found on the beast. Anyway, my idea is not yet fixed on the model as I explained above. I like the Gual well but it doesn't have a self-regulation system for too strong winds. It tires me
If it is the one that we retain in the end, it will take 2. We have room to install 3 without much problem. If it takes more than 3, we will have a problem but we are not there ...
To cope with a possible higher production, I will be more inclined to go towards a model like this:
http://www.naturavox.fr/energies/articl ... cal-bsb-le.
The only drawback I see is that it is still at an artisanal stage. Few possible cost scales for industrialized manufacturing. So the idea is interesting but probably not very affordable for an individual. I like being able to add production units by stacking. Finally! We have not yet reached this stage.
Your comments are always appreciated.
CYRIL
So if I understand correctly, who says thermostat says `` obligatorily and minimally '' batteries to supply the thermostat with 24vdc stable and constant electricity.
Is this really an essential condition?
Couldn't the thermostat be supplied with ERDF?
One of my goals is to minimize investment both in terms of wind generation and transformation-distribution. So I'm trying to avoid anything that can `` eat '' the output between the output from the wind turbine and the heating element (and I know it goes fast) a little 5% here, another 15% there and I may end up in the end needing to double the production capacity for the same result. Produce, transform and distribute at a cost and I cultivate my natural greed to try to reduce it as much as possible
The “target audience” is more comfortable in mechanics than in electronics. Must do with the resources available
For the characteristics of the wind turbine, I found it here:
http://www.gual-statoeolien.com/Doctech.pdf
It's pretty minimalist but that's all I found on the beast. Anyway, my idea is not yet fixed on the model as I explained above. I like the Gual well but it doesn't have a self-regulation system for too strong winds. It tires me
If it is the one that we retain in the end, it will take 2. We have room to install 3 without much problem. If it takes more than 3, we will have a problem but we are not there ...
To cope with a possible higher production, I will be more inclined to go towards a model like this:
http://www.naturavox.fr/energies/articl ... cal-bsb-le.
The only drawback I see is that it is still at an artisanal stage. Few possible cost scales for industrialized manufacturing. So the idea is interesting but probably not very affordable for an individual. I like being able to add production units by stacking. Finally! We have not yet reached this stage.
Your comments are always appreciated.
CYRIL
0 x
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