Solar and heat pump: how to avoid charlatants?

[Christophe]

In the same vein as Special Envoy a few weeks ago, the magazine 60 millions of consumers (mag of the INC: National Institute of Consumption) made a file on abuses and scams in the field of renewable energies: in photovoltaic head and heat pump (air-air for the most part) that fuel the greed ... and overcharging related to premiums and aids.



The results of the survey are quite catastrophic: most of the "pros" consulted turn out to be very mediocre.

It's the June issue 2010, it's still in the kiosks a few days I think.

Official page: http://www.60millions-mag.com/kiosque/m ... charlatans

Heat pumps, solar panels: stop drifting!

For wanting to install a green energy equipment, consumers find themselves in expensive galleys. Our survey, our test with professionals and our advice to invest without being caught.

ps: a good method is to come to inquire or ask questions about econology

[chatelot16]

yes, there is work! what should be done ?

to accuse profesionel is not the solution ...

more interesting question: why is there too much bad profesionel?

answer because of a lack of technical information available for everyone: if there was more consumer lighted the bad profesionel could no longer exist

a few years ago, I tried to install myself as an installer for a good heat pump, at the beginning of my steps the equipment supplier took me to the red carpet, offered me free training, alas when I asked too many questions precise that I showed competence in thermodynamics all the doors are closed as if I felt the sulfur ...

the merchants want artisans who believe without discussing what they are told: a craftsman who understands, and buys the different pieces at differnet supplier is completely undesirable, do not speak of the one who manufactures in his way what does not please him at the merchants ...

even the chamber of work put me sticks in the wheel because I did not have cape of plumber or heating ...

at that time it was only the beginning of the internet, no forum , or more direct information

what to do practically to improve the situation?

it seems to me indispensable to make laws to compel the manufacturer to correctly distribute the complete technical information of what it sells, so that a maximum of customer can seek to understand and not to be satisfied to trust the seller who speaks the better

by waiting to encourage those who bought this kind of material to obtain from the manufacturer all the detailed documentation to ensure the effective maintenance (or reutiliser the pieces in a better instalation if the first installation is not good)

even a bad heat pump can be made with a good compressor and exchangers, just badly adapted, but perfectly reusable otherwise

[dedeleco]

it seems to me indispensable to make laws to compel the manufacturers to to disseminate correctly the complete technical information of what it sells, so that a maximum of customer can seek to understand and not just trust the seller who speaks the best

Strongly agree, the lobbby system forces professionals to be trapped and blind, but how to judge the correct and the complete real ??
If you have the ability to understand and judge the value of the documentation, you insist vigorously, we send you a walk, since the artisans are also trapped in this system!
Even EDF with Bleu Ciel who is approaching is doubtful !!

The only power we have, is not to buy, as long as the documentation is insufficient, to demonstrate to the telephone peddlers that they are scammers (more effect than one thinks about the poor person who repeats his lesson on the telephone and did not understand the inconsistencies of his speech and who learns that he favors a future Chernobyl or that his speech is all wrong as the A2 explains or arnaques.com !!)

If people only bought what they understand, there would be fewer scams and poor workmanship !!

In my case, I do not buy much, because almost nothing of what is proposed is consistent: windows change, heat pump, photovoltaic on the roof, and never insulation of the outer walls!

How do the good professionals seriously, either they stop being it or they disappear as chatelot 16 ???

[chatelot16]

of course we still have the power to buy nothing ...

I know a lot of people who are fortunate enough to have a good income and who do not want to take care of wood heating or even to be delivered fuel oil: they all warm themselves to the toaster

the right heat pump would be the right solution!

insulation from the outside is also a difficult activity: it is the best way to build a house without making it uninhabitable by breaking everything inside! but this is another subject to open ...

to advance the schmilblick, what must be done to force the instalator to provide the necessary documentation? do real ecology! to be profitable a heat pump must last a long time, therefore to be maintained correctly: the artsan which installed it is not eternal: and the manufacturer either: therefore it is necessary to demand immediately after the instalation all the documentation neccessaire for to be able to do the same service or have it done by anyone else

we must consider as lamentably polishing any machine sold without proper documentation, because at the first breakdown it will be badly repaired or discarded, or will waste a lot of energy ...

that the one who does not know to judge if the documentation provided is correct publishes it on this forum : have him give us our opinion

Some manufacturers will oppose this dissemination of information, they have to be ... the manufacturers who give the best documentation will have much to gain

on another forum (futura not to name it) the moderators are categorically opposed to the diffusion of any document with the least copyrignt: it is however the only solution against the ignorance: that those who have the means to buy diffuse what can be useful

[dedeleco]

Personal statement:
l
The heat pump is at best made to last 10ans, and the refrigerant changes faster than that, it becomes not found because forbidden, that the manufacturer no longer spare parts, nor electronics, and so that after the serious failure, we must buy another!

I'm even afraid of repairers, plumbers, who break more than they repair (lived on the boiler of my mother-in-law, who reproached me for disturbing the plumber, making remarks common sense)!


When you buy, you have to plan all the faults !! and hasto buy all the parts in double, triple, quadruple, much more than the notice !!
For heat pump, it is necessary the vacuum pump, the refilling refrigerant, the spare engines, fans, etc .. is a second pump for exchange !!

Boiler, the same !!!

Given the electronics with microprocessor everywhere, it becomes impossible to have a real notice: the microprocessor program, to be able to reprogram it, if annoying error!
Example, Japanese fuzzy logic on thermal regulation !!

[chatelot16]

the right information is even more important for the fluid

We were made to believe that the R12 and R22 freon refrigeration machines were worthless: they were replaced by shitty fluid that was less polluting.

it is not often said that many refrigerators or freezers today work on R600a and R290, which simply means isobutane and propane

we also forgot to say that the compressor has freon was very well compatible with the R600a and R290

this bad information made me throw up piles of old freezer that I could have put back into service ... if I had known that it was enough to make them walk propane

do not talk about recovery of gas: just leave the tap of his gas for a few minutes to let off as much gas as there is in a freezer

propane R290 is the right fluid for heat pump: in case of failure can always operate the stove by emptying the heat pump: no problem of recycling the gas if it must be emptied

I prefer the pump water / water the compressor and the exchanger are out of the habitable zone and even often outright outside: no problem of security

[chatelot16]

For heat pump, it is necessary the vacuum pump, the cooling fluid of refill

there is already a compressor in the heat pump, and with well placed faucet it can be used as a vacuum pump

a good heat pump at R290 can be filled or emptied easily without additional material

the majority of refrigeration compressors are compatible with propane

the problem is not the recovery of the refrigerant but the detection of leaks: every time there is a leak we wait for the complete failure to repair, so all the gas is gone: the refrigeration man conscientiously recovers a quantity of gas derisory

it should be an automatic control of the amount of gas: a certain stop all the liquid gas must return to a tank which can be checked level: as the level is constant there is no leakage: if the level drops it There is a leak, we can empty the circuit by recovering the gas and repair the leak: but I have never seen this before

[Ahmed]

Dedeleco wrote:

How do the good serious professionals, either they cease to be, or they disappear as chatelot 16 ???

The criterion of profitability actually favors the "bad" * craftsman or merchant who does not give the right advice or the right service, but advocates or works for his exclusive benefit and therefore to the detriment of the customer ...
The asymmetry of knowledge between customers and professionals favors this process: it is more tempting to sell new equipment than to make a simple adjustment!

castle 16wrote:

to be profitable a heat pump must last a long time ...

This is obviously the condition of financial viability for the customer, but not for the chain manufacturers, distributors, installers whose interests are the exact opposite.

* Actually the "good", in economic terms!

[jaffry26]

it will take time for natural skimming to take place between those who want to take advantage of customers without any knowledge and to scam them, who consider renewable energies as one way to surf a fashion without believing deeply, and then there are those who are above all loyal to themselves, and who are advancing without having only the business line and the $$ at the end of the month, even if everyone needs to earn his bread!
I remain fairly confident how things will evolve, and soon we will be more likely to come across someone serious and intimately convinced by renewable energy.

[Christophe]

I remain fairly confident how things will evolve, and soon we will be more likely to come across someone serious and intimately convinced by renewable energy.

Not at all because those who survive in the business are the ones who earn the most money ...