Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
DavidM26
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Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by DavidM26 » 26/06/18, 16:55

Hello,
here are some explanations about our situation:

The project's objectives :

Large productive collective garden, non-profit.
+ a party for fruit trees to help a person to start his business pro.

Produce and share the harvests, give some of them to solidarity alternative activities (popular canteen, local struggles ...)
Create a productive ecosystem, inspired by permaculture, ... and phenoculture.

There will perhaps be a small production of plants and seeds later for the place and "friendly" places.

The group is in training.
One of us did a training in permaculture and for fruit trees. Many of us have gardening experience. Many of us are also in a small collective garden inspired by permaculture.
We would like to prepare the ground this summer and this autonomous to be able to plant fruit trees this winter, and start growing vegetables in 2019.
All of course without too much work, without spending too much money, ... and without damaging the ground.
We do not have to cultivate all the surface right now of course, it will also depend on our number and availability.

We will probably build a garden shed this winter.
Later, probably a bioclimatic greenhouse of 20m2.


Characteristic of the terrain:
Fallow land, 4000m2, flat, in Crest, 26400, Drôme valley

• the water table is about 3-4 m, the river Drôme is at 200-300 m
• Land Not cultivated nor used for at least 10 years: no significant pollution. No earth analysis done.
• History of conventional cultivation: vines, then asparagus and cereals
• Very compacted land, with related indicator plants, moss on the ground, especially on the southern part. Anaerobically. Compacted even in depth. Soils a priori clayey, loamy. Organic matter has a hard time decaying.
• Currently: herbs, few brambles, some trees and shrubs

Local note: here phacelia, beans and mustards sown in autumn can happen most of the time to spend the winter without too much freezing.


We try to digest the book "Le potager du laesseux" (bravo and thank you!) Which says that for a wasteland you have to cut everything and unroll the hay in the fall.
Only, we say that given the characteristics of our land that may be insufficient for the objectives we have given?
Is it possible on this ground to start a vegetable garden (by first putting some types of resistant vegetables) from 2019? If yes, how ?
Should we wait and wait another year? (as shown on http://www.monjardinenpermaculture.fr/p ... -sol-lourd )
What are your opinions please?


We think that perhaps we should involve a big digger to make mounds of earth, and sow green fertilizers adapted to better aerate the soil and grow faster. Especially for the fruit trees so that the roots of the trees are not too much in the moisture.
But it will destroy the layers of the soil and compact even more on the paths of the machine!

Others recommend destroying the current vegetation with the brushcutter and / or with the help of animals (sheep, goats, donkeys ...). Then to scrape the soil all over the surface in the autumn (September) (which means to find a tractor with the ad hoc gear ...) in order to sow in mass of suitable green fertilizers (decompactant, with roots that go deep).

Still others say to make mounds only for fruiters.

In any case, we thought: from the frosts, in December a priori, cover everywhere with hay if we find, (or straw and leaves, or other) + organic waste of cooking from below as we at.


If you need more information do not hesitate.
Thank you for any advice and feedback on similar soils.
David, for the group
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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by Did67 » 26/06/18, 18:40

Before getting into the "technique", a general consideration:

- "collective" projects have advantages; but they have the "defect" that often there are long discussions to find out what is best ... A form of considerable energy dissipation!

- often the "best" is difficult to define; "nothing is perfect" have I written many times; nothing is ever zero either; there are often only shades of gray!

The risk is therefore to dissipate a lot of energy for shades of gray.

I suggest you try. Rather than spending too much time thinking.

Some are tempted by "permaculture" - it is inevitable, so tenacious is fashion. Let them raise their hands. And forward! Come on, 500 m² of mounds to do, it will occupy them!

The followers of the transat? If there is any, get a functional gear. Who's leaving ??? Well, we have to start by identifying the deposits of roofing materials: hay? BRF? organic waste of all kinds ... ???

I will not decide between groups. But I want to think carefully with the second group. I invite you to start by reading nico239, here, on econology, which, in 04, began on a track of kart, by planting with the electric auger. History to cheer you up against a terrain that seems ungrateful.

Some photos would allow me to see a little more clearly. A priori:

- an alluvial valley is a good situation.

- the soil, if it is dry, is hard: it is normal.

- a water table at 3 or 4 m does not pose any hydromorphic problem, quite the contrary; it is useless to "stop" for that!

- even 10 years later, if the vine has been bombarded with Bordeaux mixture for 50 years (therefore even and especially if it was carried out "organic"), it remains a huge problem: copper, unlike synthetic pesticides, stays in the ground and does not move; it is especially in the first 15/20 cm, at 90% ... I do not see how it could be explained that it is not more a "bush".

- only massive inputs of organic matter, with aerobic (surface) biological activity, leading to the mass formation of humic substances, will be able to "deactivate" this excess copper a little. There is a sort of "sequestration" of this poison.

Photograph your site, but also sites upstream or downstream, equidistant from the river, so that I can see the "natural formations" ...

In accordance with what I think, of course I would proscribe any excavator or any brutal treatment of the ground. An "artificial aeration", without biological activity of the soil, will only be a breath which falls very quickly.

Does your land have a slope, even very slight ????

If so, the only reasonable "mechanical treatment" then seems to me to be a subsoiling (with a powerful vertical blade over about 60 cm at least), contoured, with sowing of a "perforator" plant in the furrow. I think, at home, has alfalfa. It can be done right away!

And the rest, I'll let you organize yourselves, see if the project takes shape, if "phenocultants" emerge and want to try ... We can then think together!

Ah, one more piece of data: what is the rainfall in the area ??? extreme temperatures ??? (if I'm not mistaken, it's the dodger in summer but it can get cold in winter?). And rather than renting an excavator, I will pay for a basic soil analysis (with "grain size") AND a copper dosage (that can be a bit tricky ??? Inquire).

At your disposal. But not as arbiter between the permacultural fury of orders and the “transatlantic flexi-gardening” of others! There, you do your best!
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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by Ahmed » 26/06/18, 19:33

Did, you write:
... there are long palaver to know what is best ... A form of considerable energy dissipation!

... but also an indispensable step to build the group and mature the project through dialogue. 8)
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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by Did67 » 26/06/18, 20:19

Yes.

The objectives must be prioritized!

This can be to build a group, at the risk of delaying / limiting production if there are divergent options (which seems to be the case - between "phenoculture" and "digging logs with the excavator", there is no is not all nuances and the consensus will not be obvious!).

Or it can be to obtain results, to produce, at the risk of individualism (the allotment gardens are a model of collective gardens where each one, in the respect of the specifications, often drastic indeed, does what he wants - which does not prevent meetings, parties, shared barbecues ...).

[My remark is mostly based on almost systematically unhappy experiences in Africa. Once the palaver was over, the season was over. The production was so ridiculous that the individuals constituting the group no longer found any interest in it. And the group too, it was over! Now I don't want to impose anything. I just don't want to arbitrate. And I don't want to waste my time if the "permaculturalists" are more numerous than the phenoculturists and their precepts prevail. Unless, as suggested, each one constitutes a sub-group and that within a common framework, each sub-group conducts its experiment, the sub-groups being able to challenge each other without holding back!]

[PS: I had made a conf in intro of the GA of the association of the Jardins Ouvriers de Sélestat; Saturday I received a group of these gardeners to visit my home; when it was time to have a beer together, the president told me that "that was changing" ... "not all, but some". That pleased me.]
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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by Ahmed » 26/06/18, 20:46

The urgency, here, is not the shortage, so establishing a solid foundation of operation of the group can pass before the search for immediate results. Errors are also part of the learning process, provided that you can calmly correct the shot as you go ...
The type of relationship that will be established between the members depends on how the choices will be made, so this is a particularly important aspect. It would be inappropriate to copy the operation of a company where the result takes precedence and is obtained without consideration for its actors.
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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by DavidM26 » 26/06/18, 22:04

Hello,
thank you for these quick answers and clarification.

I will pass this on to the other initiators.
We will try to take pictures this week. In the meantime, even satellite view at the end of the mail, but which do not allow to see the species of plants ..!

As for the group, and any subgroups, we have a meeting on Thursday. We will probably begin to see more clearly later, as well as the objectives of each other, and if there is a merger on a method or want to try several!
So we will come back here later once things are clear.

Yes it is certain that the collective projects it can be complicated, one had the experiment of various collectives. But there are also advantages: diversity, original ideas, energy ...

For this project, we do not want individual plots, but small-scale individual or collective experiments ok. We will discuss it anyway.

For initiators, the desire is to act, to do work / crops, not to palaver months to form a group. Rather, after a few common bases, we tend to build the group through action. But it remains to be seen if others agree with this method.

For copper, yes it's a question to dig.
Perhaps the absence of dense vegetation would be explained if the field was cleared with tractor from time to time, we must ask the owner.

Terrain
no, there is no slope.
We saw that in heavy rain it did not turn into a pond.

For weather data, I found this:
https://www.infoclimat.fr/climatologie/ ... 000N3.html
or that in Valencia, near: http://www.linternaute.com/voyage/clima ... ille-26362
It can quickly make more than 30 ° the summer. Few rains in summer, sometimes storms.
Winter is variable, but with climate change it is rather mild, few strong frosts, which do not last. But a cold winter can happen.
We often have the north wind that releases clouds and rain.

Thank you and probably see you soon,
David

and also link on google maps direct: https://www.google.fr/maps/@44.7281879, ... a=!3m1!1e3
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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 27/06/18, 23:53

Did67 wrote:I will not decide between groups. But I want to think carefully with the second group. I invite you to start by reading nico239, here, on econology, which, in 04, began on a track of kart, by planting with the electric auger. History to cheer you up against a terrain that seems ungrateful.


I confirm. : Mrgreen:

In this case it was a track of auto cross ...
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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 27/06/18, 23:58

DavidM26 wrote:As for the group, and any subgroups, we have a meeting on Thursday. We will probably begin to see more clearly later, as well as the objectives of each other, and if there is a merger on a method or want to try several!
So we will come back here later once things are clear.



On this question of the groups another idea would be to PROFIT divergent opinions so that MULTIPLE groups do to their taste.

A bit like me and Mrs. who made two groups of ... UN (this reminds me of a skit) Image

Healthy emulation, nice competition, various experiments, comparison, contribution to each other and vice versa ...

And over time a reunification in my natural sense.

And then as Didier says, while those who chose the mounds build them; others (lazy gardeners) have the choice between playing cards, petanque or aperitif (or 3), that too it can weld a group, or "desoldering" according to the amount of appetizers eaten. Image

But I think like Didier that it is futile to spend energy to want to unify all opinions.

You may have 2 or 3 trends and then each trend does it in its own way.
And I even think it would be VERY exciting as a project, rather than everyone doing the same thing in onion row

In my opinion it will be constructive for ALL Image

PS - at what altitude?
Last edited by Adrien (ex-nico239) the 28 / 06 / 18, 00: 03, 2 edited once.
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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 28/06/18, 00:02

Nice "desert", but if the water is not far it could quickly become lush

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Re: Need advice to start a big collective garden on wasteland




by DavidM26 » 02/07/18, 11:50

Hello,

we met and we visited the field together.
We have several "problems":
    We are only 4 for now, plus a few people to help occasionally
    It seems that the land in the sector is coveted by the town hall which aims to make a "land reserve" there, in order, in the long term, to make it an artisanal zone (the PLU is being modified) (apparently the town hall wants pre-empt the remaining agricultural land if they are put up for sale, to be confirmed, and for the moment the neighbors in the area do not want to sell at all and instead oppose the town hall's plans)

We contacted the town hall, but had no accurate and reliable information for now.
Should we get to know if the craft zone project is maintained for this area, and what do they mean by long term (5 years, 30 years ...?).
Because if it is maintained, must see if it's worth it (and it means not to put fruit trees) to start a garden, because the town hall could make a Declaration of Public Utility to expropriate by force if she needs. And then it would be necessary to resist with the neighbors to prevent the project!, But that could be very difficult and very uncertain ...

Other info: the land is classified as an area flooded by overflows, low risk
We will also contact the owner for more info.

With this small number of motivated for the moment, we must also discuss again if it is playable, making only a small part to start.

Otherwise, we know that the field has not been mown for at least 10 years. Trees and shrubs grow here and there.
See photos of the place and adjacent land: https://app.box.com/s/ndflvx56d39nczho5qabu5m1cv192wdn
It grows many soil decompactant plants with pivoting roots.

It's probably not worth your time to give more advice, because we still lack elements in fact, and unfortunately not sure that it continues :(
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