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Wet combustion: explanations by Rémi Guillet

published: 24/07/08, 14:23
View Christophe
I am creating this subject in order to discuss the improvement of combustion by "simple" humidification of the air, in other words: control of the hygrometry of the combustion air.

This, of course, largely links the work on Gillier Pantone water doping although I think there is something else happening in the GP like the ionization theory:

Here is a document that explains the technique to download here: ... formances/

Water vapor pump and wet combustion: explanations and performances. By Rémi Guillet.

Steam pump

Having started in the early 1970 years of research and development on condensing furnaces (combustion products) in order to limit air flue gas condensation of fuel that was new at the time, gas natural, correspondingly increase the combustion efficiency with this type of heat generator, the energy crisis following the oil shock of 1973 had the opportunity to pursue this route to extend their scope application (in truth very small!).

Indeed, the effective condensation of the water produced during combustion in a heat generator assumes that the lowest temperature of the "cold source", or the temperature of the water entering there in the case of a boiler, is lower than the dew point temperature of the combustion gases produced (approximately 60 ° C in the case of natural gas combustion products).

Can even be observed that the water vapor is not pure, the condensation is not isothermal and significant condensation involves a rejection of the combustion products at least 15 ° C below said dew point temperature: a constraint greatly limiting the application of condensing generators field.

So, how to expand the scope of knowledge that the water temperature in a heating loop by returning hot water boiler reaches 70 ° C? pressurization of the combustion products, separating the water vapor from other gases? Many solutions proposed by engineers and other academics involved in thermal research after the oil shock of 1973.

In my case, the proposed solution has been to increase the tension of the water vapor in the combustion products through the furnace, conducting an exchange (ultimate) enthalpy between the outgoing gases ( saturated with water vapor at the end of a first sequence of condensation in the condensing furnace or more often in the heat recovery / condenser associated with a traditional generator) and combustion air, said exchange relating to both the residual sensible heat recycled by preheating the incoming air, and the latent heat of residual condensation after an ultimate condensation of the water vapor from the outgoing gas side and recycled by evaporation of this water in the incoming air as well moistened.

From a quantitative point of view and at this final stage of exchange, everything happens in the steam pump as if there were pumping water vapor contained in the outgoing gas recovery / condenser recycling of this vapor in the incoming air.

Correspondingly, at the end of this exchange, the sensible and latent heat released to the chimney becoming almost zero, the combustion efficiency reached its maximum or 100% (based on the gross calorific value of the fuel)

published: 24/07/08, 15:41
View Capt_Maloche
Oh, here! that's exactly what I found on my burner, 20 coef reduction of NOx

See: heating-insulation / amelioration-burner-fuel-reduction-nox-and-co-Blue Flame-t5172.html

it is this painting that is very interesting:

it is between 3.5 and 4.5 that the result would be the best
between 22 and 30% of water mass in relation to the mass of fuel

and lately I have sprayed a supplement of water, which has actually dropped the T ° of the flame and produces a lot of CO

the trick is to maintain a flame above 1000 ° C (for CO) and below 1300 ° C (for NOx)

published: 24/07/08, 15:49
View Christophe
Hey yes ... great minds ... you know what's next :) : Mrgreen:

On the other hand in the case of gillier pantone (without reinjection of the exhaust and therefore Egr) it is rather in the 20% volumic water is about 0.25 on this table ... so far from 3.5 4 ...

In your case if you reinjected hypothetically 100% of the combustion gases of the boiler you would not exceed the 1.2 so I do not agree with your%: it would not be rather 220% and 300%?

published: 24/07/08, 21:07
View Capt_Maloche
You forget the mass of oxygen in the air

because of its atomic mass of 16, you reject more co2 in weight than you have consumed fuel

published: 25/07/08, 04:06
View Other

it is between 3.5 and 4.5 that the result would be the best
between 22 and 30% of water mass in relation to the mass of fuel

In my case
It is between 1,2 liters of water and 1,6 liters of water for 6 has 6,5 liters of diesel, it is far on the curve of 1 or 3,5
If I understand correctly it would consume 6 liters of water for 6litres of gas oil to be 1 it's rather huge?

20% are the most common figures sometimes 28% if you want more power. (0,88 gas oil)


published: 25/07/08, 09:19
View Capt_Maloche
Absolutely, the curve shows only the reduction of NOx, conversely one could draw the curve of CO which will increase towards 30 of mass of water compared to the fuel.

perfect combustion reaction GO (nitrogen is not present)
2 C16H34 + 49 O2 = 32 CO2 + 34 H2O

published: 25/07/08, 11:03
View Christophe
Capt_Maloche wrote:You forget the mass of oxygen in the air

because of its atomic mass of 16, you reject more co2 in weight than you have consumed fuel

Hu? What is the CO2 or O2 doing in the water / fuel mass ratio? : Shock:

Fuel = fuel and non-fuel + oxidizer

So I agree with André there!

Otherwise, I invited the author of this document I hope he will be able to register and write about forums.

published: 25/07/08, 11:46
View Capt_Maloche
Nothing, but I like to remember, it's not obvious at first glance

pity he did not do the same picture for the amount of particles and CO

Anyway, my own tests have confirmed the direct corelation with the temperature of the flame;

there is cyclic thermolysis (OPS) superheated steam reintroduced into the heart of the flame and the instantaneous combustion of the product of thermolysis allows a total vaporization of oil droplets in suspension while allowing, from the recirculation of colder gas, the lowering of the average flame T °

in any case, until proven otherwise, that's my conclusion

Edit of the author:
false for thermolysis, true for the rest, it has evolved since :D see next post

published: 25/07/08, 11:50
View Christophe
We agree, but the amounts of water injected in this graph are far (much higher) than those of our experiments. It's everything I wanted to say.

Which would mean that there would be another effect (thermolysis) in our case than just spraying water?

published: 25/07/08, 11:54
View Capt_Maloche
Christophe wrote:Which would mean that there would be another effect (thermolysis) in our case than just spraying water?

Yeah, the cooling of the flame by excess of water

Uh, what case?