Water injection competing in 80 years

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
Christophe
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Water injection competing in 80 years




by Christophe » 27/05/06, 20:55

I just posted an article on water injection in competition. The second part will arrive in the coming days (with some rare power curves).

Water injection on very efficient engines used in competition was a common custom in the 70s and 80s.

The purpose of these water injections had, at least, 3 very distinct essential roles:

- Increase the admission rate, ie the mass of mixture, by cooling the mixture or intake air by evaporation of this water. Thus this increased the specific power of the engine.

- increase the detonation resistance of the mixture (ie increase the octane number of the mixture). In this sense, this joins the MW50 - Methanol Water - injection on 2e WWII fighter planes (click here for more information).

- cool the internal components (in particular: jacket, valve, seat, piston ...) of the engine during heavy loads.


Read more : https://www.econologie.com/injection-ea ... 1-renault/

ps: I haven't read it again, there must be some bad mistakes !!
Last edited by Christophe the 14 / 08 / 06, 13: 58, 1 edited once.
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by bolt » 27/05/06, 22:55

Econology wrote:.... 3 distinct essential roles:

- Increase the admission rate, ie the mass of mixture, by cooling the mixture or intake air by evaporation of this water. Thus this increased the specific power of the engine.


it deserves reflection, even if the result was there
that would mean that the part of water injected, gaining volume after having evaporated, even if it is a small quantity (at 1 atm the volume taken by water is multiplied by 1700 approx, here at 2,8 atm, it would be 607)
would be less important than the contraction of intake air that would go from 60 ° C to 12 ° C (14,4% less volume)
Who is stalled in mass heat?

Or the vaporization starts by making small droplets that are only partially evaporated in the intake pipe, and end up cooling the air during compression, vaporizing completely, but here we are already, I think in the second point

Econology wrote:- increase the detonation resistance of the mixture (ie increase the octane number of the mixture). In this sense, this joins the MW50 - Methanol Water - injection on 2e WWII fighter planes (click here for more information).


here is for chemists

Econology wrote:- cool the internal components (including: liner, valve, seat, piston ...) of the engine during strong solicitations. [/ i]


Here is the most understandable

bolt
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by Christophe » 27/05/06, 23:05

1) For 10 to 12 ° C, it is a "small error" in translation (the text of the renault engineer was in English), in fact it should read:

"So we managed to reduce the temperature of the compressed air intake from 10 to 12 ° C which was before around 60 ° C"

2) So the results of your reasoning would be even "worse" ... But beware the boost pressure rose to 4,5 bars.

But this benefit was not necessarily that sought with the example of Renault Sport which wanted to avoid detonation.

But the pb is that we have no idea of ​​the flow rates of water injected / flow rate of mixture ... Although we could find this relationship (assuming the mixture = pure air to simplify) with the delta of 10 ° C to 12 ° C ... which sticks to it :?: : Cheesy:

3) Wait for part 2 (Ferrari in F1 and SAAB on road vehicle), there are some figures ... (but not much ... :| )
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by Other » 28/05/06, 00:02

Hello
12 liters of water before returning to the well this gives us a good idea compared to the fuel consumed, so little water.
We arrive at ratios similar to those in our engine!
This system is good on an engine with a limited compression ratio for the fuel used and the heat of the air in the turbo,
you shouldn't make too much of a comparison with a diesel, in my case I don't have an in-cooler and in summer the intake manifold you can touch it with your bare hand not long, and I noticed that even in conditions or the panton was sending out cold
80c there was a good response from the engine, I always assumed that it cooled the air intake so relieved the compression, hence the finding that the engine brake decreases with pants and even more when we make him drink more water.
That the water evaporates during its journey in the tubing and on entering, the cylinder is correct (the drop in temperature confirms it to us, but during the compression cycle, I think that it must condense despite the high final temperature, and probably evaporate during the combustion cycle delaying the brutality of the diesel,
this also explains why when it is made to drink a lot of water the engine becomes more powerful, and more greedy.
But that does not explain to me why it is necessary to make him drink a small quantity of very precise water so that it is economical
it's my simple way to see what water does in a diesel ..

Andre
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by Christophe » 28/05/06, 14:15

I inserted some images on the article.
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by lau » 28/05/06, 15:41

thanks for this article!
as what the vaporization of water would increase the combustion pressure and therefore the efficiency but in the case of racing cars a lowering of T °.
but that does not tell us why this technique is no longer used and why also it has not been applied on civil vehicles?
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by zac » 28/05/06, 16:22

lau wrote:but that does not tell us why this technique is no longer used and why also it has not been applied on civil vehicles?

Hello
She is still employed (WRC except world championship).

In plainclothes, to my knowledge it was abandoned because the client was unable to make 2 full : Mrgreen:
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by ecototo » 28/05/06, 17:57

A plane project that ran on fuel, water, alcohol never saw the light of day because of the 3 tanks ...
be saying, unprofitable..lol
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by bolt » 28/05/06, 19:21

Hello
I'm not a researcher (except on the net) : Cheesy:
When you want an answer, you have to get started

Normally, (dry) water vapor has a greater mass volume than air
but to compare this, they need the same T °, ​​same pressure
: Arrow: at 20 ° C (at 1 atm) "water vapor" is liquid water, it cannot be otherwise if the water is all alone; it needs air to evaporate at this T ° (for example, we have 14 gr of maximum dry water vapor per kg of air at 20 ° C; 152 gr at 60 ° C; 545 at 80 ° C; and infinity at 100 ° C)
Take 100 ° C and 1 atm:
1 m3 of almost dry air = 0,946 kg (1kg of air = 1057 liter)
1 m3 of water vapor = 0,585 kg (1 kg vap = 1709 liter)

but the specific heat is more important for water vapor than for air
air: 1005 joule / (kg. ° K)
water vapor: 1850 joule / (kg. ° K)

Assuming there is no decomposition of the water molecule:
If a motor is swallowed with water vapor, this water vapor (inert to be confirmed) only replaces part of the oxidant which is useful and essential for combustion

So far, this is only a disadvantage to the engine (except if the vaporization is done in the intake circuit for an initial effect T ° engine input) (but in a pantone, it arrives too hot for that, but hey, there is supposedly something else, but here I only develop the vapor effect)

(here to continue, we must assume that the engine in question does not lack air (partly replaced by steam))
(I therefore assume that the engine has swallowed more dry air from the air)
this aspirated volume (which will be able to satisfy the fuel injected, we agree) has on the one hand, a less significant mass (compared to air alone) and, on the other hand, a greater thermal inertia important: in this case, one cancels the other, and if nothing else happens, the only advantage is the slightest mass inertia of the sucked volume, but this still reduces the volume of "oxidizer"

On the other hand, if the engine swallows this "vapor" in the form of water (micro droplets), it swallows the maximum amount of air (oxidizer) which heats up during compression, while giving calories to these micro droplets vaporizing completely (we know that at 40 bar, above 250 ° C, there can no longer be the "water" form)
so at the end of compression, as there is certainly more than 250 ° C, the water must have made all its vapor pressure

As the thermal inertia is greater, we can suppose to have a T ° lower than normal even if we have a higher pressure, and if the T ° is lower, there is less loss by the walls

But if the thermal inertia is greater, we can suppose that it is necessary to compensate for this more painful rise in heat by an excess of fuel

Water injection may save horses, but at what cost :?:
This is probably why they did not develop for everyone
Understand that they only injected water at full power
It's a safe bet that at low or half-load, it would have been a disaster: worse combustion and higher consumption

bolt
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by Christophe » 28/05/06, 20:03

lau wrote:but that does not tell us why this technique is no longer used and why also it has not been applied on civil vehicles?


Well ... I wrote well: "These water injection processes have all been banned in official Rally or Formula 1 type competition over time to limit the race for power." no ?

What interest for the civilian since it is in a race for power?
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