I open this discussion which seems interesting to me because I had lately a long discussion with a senior engineer, now retired ... but still in activity (more than 90 years!).
This exceptional man, of unparalleled simplicity and modesty, graduated from several high schools in France and the USA (X, MIT). He travels today to France to sit in scientific academies and give lectures. In short, that's the pedigree of the gentleman.
We were talking about this particularity which pushes man to always seek progress, to go further, higher, faster. The opinion of this engineer is that "The search for progress is inscribed in the genetic heritage of man!"
Indeed, human behavior is generally characterized by tendencies to always act in the same direction in order to progress ... It remains to define what is meant by "progress" for man.
I would add that man seeks progress beyond "Common Sense". "Common sense" being for me this faculty of being able to say to oneself, that in the end, this progress sought with so much passion and stubbornness brings it inexorably closer to its loss.
I conclude that if indeed we admit that progress is part of the genetic heritage of man, we must also admit that man carries his own loss in its genetic heritage! ...
The Genetic Heritage of Man ...
- Grelinette
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The Genetic Heritage of Man ...
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Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
Hasty conclusion!
If "progress" is contrary to real common sense (eiwhich is not simply a reflection of his prejudices or beliefs) is that it is not progress.
By definition, a progress is a positive change: no need to summon genetics to understand that nobody wants to consciously regress!
The "progress" which is ruining humanity's possibility of survival is a propaganda leitmotif in line with the Newspeak ofOrwell: simply the opposite.
If "progress" is contrary to real common sense (eiwhich is not simply a reflection of his prejudices or beliefs) is that it is not progress.
By definition, a progress is a positive change: no need to summon genetics to understand that nobody wants to consciously regress!
The "progress" which is ruining humanity's possibility of survival is a propaganda leitmotif in line with the Newspeak ofOrwell: simply the opposite.
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"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
- Grelinette
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Your answer, Ahmed, highlights the paradox of the human species.
Indeed, progress (for the man), in its first sense, is synonymous with improvement of his condition, of his comfort, of his life.
Now, man, who is also characterized by all his excesses (excess is perhaps part of his genetic heritage? ...) will seek progress to the point of absurdity, beyond the Necessary and Suffisant, therefore beyond the famous "Bon-Sens".
Curiously, it is this famous Bon-sense which motivated him precisely to look for the means to implement to improve his condition and to preserve it from the external aggressions which come to attack and weaken it!
In times of famine, to ensure the longevity of one's life and that of one's peers, one has to look for a way to feed oneself ...
He has reached the point of getting sick of too much food, of producing too much, of destroying his environment ... and starving his peers!
In fact, we return to many debates widely present on this forum and on others:
Man, or more exactly a small part of men, after having found (or taken advantage of) multiple solutions and means to guard against the evils which threaten him, has transformed this "progress" into a more complex and abstract notion: he has invented trade and money to sell his neighbor this "improvement of life", this surplus of comfort and security resulting from progress and which he does not need.
It is also still a paradox because once in "security" with regard to the vicissitudes which are harmful to him, the man resells the surplus of comfort and security for a gain which he does not need. This gain, which has become financial, is a further guarantee of its already optimal security ...
"No need to summon genetics to understand that no one consciously wants to regress"...
How to explain this original reflex and primitive human to always look for global opulence, endless growth, and excess?
There are many profound reflexes in human behavior, the genesis of which is so deep and so ancient that it is readily placed in its Genetic Heritage, the latter being, by definition, the hereditary library of rules governing the behavior of the species. human and indicating the path to follow, which is not necessarily the right path.
Indeed, progress (for the man), in its first sense, is synonymous with improvement of his condition, of his comfort, of his life.
Now, man, who is also characterized by all his excesses (excess is perhaps part of his genetic heritage? ...) will seek progress to the point of absurdity, beyond the Necessary and Suffisant, therefore beyond the famous "Bon-Sens".
Curiously, it is this famous Bon-sense which motivated him precisely to look for the means to implement to improve his condition and to preserve it from the external aggressions which come to attack and weaken it!
In times of famine, to ensure the longevity of one's life and that of one's peers, one has to look for a way to feed oneself ...
He has reached the point of getting sick of too much food, of producing too much, of destroying his environment ... and starving his peers!
In fact, we return to many debates widely present on this forum and on others:
Man, or more exactly a small part of men, after having found (or taken advantage of) multiple solutions and means to guard against the evils which threaten him, has transformed this "progress" into a more complex and abstract notion: he has invented trade and money to sell his neighbor this "improvement of life", this surplus of comfort and security resulting from progress and which he does not need.
It is also still a paradox because once in "security" with regard to the vicissitudes which are harmful to him, the man resells the surplus of comfort and security for a gain which he does not need. This gain, which has become financial, is a further guarantee of its already optimal security ...
"No need to summon genetics to understand that no one consciously wants to regress"...
How to explain this original reflex and primitive human to always look for global opulence, endless growth, and excess?
There are many profound reflexes in human behavior, the genesis of which is so deep and so ancient that it is readily placed in its Genetic Heritage, the latter being, by definition, the hereditary library of rules governing the behavior of the species. human and indicating the path to follow, which is not necessarily the right path.
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Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
Hello
if it were genetic, an individual placed outside society where culture predominates, would manifest this propensity to want more and more. But it is unlikely! It confuses culture and genetics, the latter becoming the stuff all that can not be explained.There are many profound reflexes in human behavior, the genesis of which is so deep and so ancient that it is readily placed in its Genetic Heritage, the latter being, by definition, the hereditary library of rules governing the behavior of the species. human and indicating the path to follow, which is not necessarily the right path.
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Good debate, I like the theme thank you Greli and happy new year!
If this gentleman had been a soldier he would certainly have said that it is the spirit of conquest (see worse: destruction of others) that is inscribed in the genes ...
Here we must first define what progress is! It is not necessarily an improvement of the material conditions ... even if it is the 1ère thing to think about it: technical progress, scientific aiming to improve the comfort of the human ...
There is also social progress, humanistic ... improving society (volunteering) without improving personal comfort is also progress ... Voir la belle verte: https://www.econologie.com/la-belle-vert ... -3670.html
Currently, I do not think we are in a phase of social progress ... but in serious recession ... the majority of people galley more and more !!
See or review the shock strategy: https://www.econologie.com/forums/la-strateg ... 11301.html
Otherwise we can start again on the debate of the innate and the acquired ... in the consumer society I think that the acquired is largely predominant in our search for "progress" (training from an early age to compete with his fellows , to "thoughtless" consumption via excessive advertising ...)
If this gentleman had been a soldier he would certainly have said that it is the spirit of conquest (see worse: destruction of others) that is inscribed in the genes ...
Here we must first define what progress is! It is not necessarily an improvement of the material conditions ... even if it is the 1ère thing to think about it: technical progress, scientific aiming to improve the comfort of the human ...
There is also social progress, humanistic ... improving society (volunteering) without improving personal comfort is also progress ... Voir la belle verte: https://www.econologie.com/la-belle-vert ... -3670.html
Currently, I do not think we are in a phase of social progress ... but in serious recession ... the majority of people galley more and more !!
See or review the shock strategy: https://www.econologie.com/forums/la-strateg ... 11301.html
Otherwise we can start again on the debate of the innate and the acquired ... in the consumer society I think that the acquired is largely predominant in our search for "progress" (training from an early age to compete with his fellows , to "thoughtless" consumption via excessive advertising ...)
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Ah ah ah not bad this one, I note!
Well your innate, it's not mine! N / A !!
Well your innate, it's not mine! N / A !!
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- Grelinette
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Christophe wrote:Good debate, I like the theme thank you Greli and happy new year!
Thank you and happy new year too.
Christophe wrote:If this gentleman had been a soldier he would certainly have said that it is the spirit of conquest (see worse: destruction of others) that is inscribed in the genes ...
I will inform him of this remark because, given his scientific level and the technical field in which he worked, he now has the rank of general of the armament (general engineer of the armament). It's actually, I think, more an honorary title than a rank of command.
Christophe wrote:Here we must first define what progress is! It is not necessarily an improvement of the material conditions ... even if it is the 1ère thing to think about it: technical progress, scientific aiming to improve the comfort of the human ...
Indeed, but I think I misread his famous sentence. In fact, it would be "The search for innovation for the progress of man is part of his genetic heritage".
Considering that he is an engineer in very technical fields, his opinion concerns technical innovation.
Christophe wrote:There is also social progress, humanistic ... improving society (volunteering) without improving personal comfort is also progress ... Voir la belle verte: https://www.econologie.com/la-belle-vert ... -3670.html
I think this nuance will interest him because the human and social aspect, even societal, seems to raise awareness as well as the technical aspect.
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Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
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Well here's an interesting character ... why not invite him directly to participate on this forum?
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- Grelinette
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Christophe wrote:Well, here is an interesting character ...
It is all the more interesting, it is very paradoxical!
For example, although he has very detailed knowledge of most principles of mechanics, physics and chemistry, he will remain like a child in front of a box of cassoulet or a boiled egg that he will not know how to cook!
Conversely, the slightest calculation problem will fascinate him: lastly, during a meal I asked him if he could calculate the volume of fuel remaining in the bottom of a buried cylindrical tank, the level being measured. with a simple stick plunged vertically into the tank ... He replied, "Hey, interesting this problem ..." and in less than 2mn while scribbling formulas on the corner of the table, he gave me the answer!
(If it interests some I copy the formula of the tablecloth! )
One thing also surprises me every time we talk together about the constraints and other vicissitudes of the basic citizen that I am, is that he never knew what his salary was, nor even the type of contract that he had ! For each of the high functions that he occupied, the whole material aspect was regulated: house, car, food, etc., so that he could devote himself completely to the mission he was entrusted to him.
why not invite him directly to participate on this forum?
History to impress him by unusual topics of discussion, I already showed him some debates on econology.
Some people intrigued him a lot, like that of "RAR Energia", to which scientifically he has no doubt about the impossibility of the principle, but like all of us, he remained perplexed by the colossal means implemented!
That said, when I have the opportunity to meet him, he is in a way "on vacation" because he spends his days cultivating his garden and preparing speeches and technical documentations of several hundred pages on very technical subjects. .
For my part, I remain puzzled by the faculty that some people can assimilate and manage technical documents of hundreds of pages filled with numbers and formulas ...
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Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
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