Electrical system for supervising an EV load cluster

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Electrical system for supervising an EV load cluster




by Remundo » 11/06/22, 10:36

I think that my topic may be of interest to the world, here is roughly the topic: communities (car parks, buildings) will have to install electrical charging clusters, rather at low power:
sicetaitsimple wrote:
Remundo wrote:can you imagine that I am in the middle of thinking about this subject to equip a car park...

let's reason on 10 places: if I want to give 10A to each place, that makes me explode the subscribed power.

I will have to put an electronic system for supervising electrical outlets with priorities... a load shedding system...



Well, it all depends on what clientele this car park is intended for. Between a hotel, for example, where charging will be done more at night with no intention of going to wake up the customer at dawn to ask him to move his vehicle and a shopping center that operates on the day when the maximum turnover will be researched, I think there are possible differences in terms of design and pricing.
That said for your example, 24kVA is about 350€/year of subscription, or 1€/day. Not the sea to drink either.

Forhorse wrote:If it's for a load that can last all night, 10A is enough.

Then you have to see if the 10 sockets will potentially be used at the same time or that there will be a "proliferation" which means that ultimately only part of the total power is necessary.

There is also the possibility of load shedding but this is not possible with a simple socket, for that you need a terminal which allows you to modulate the charging power (with the advantage of being able to charge faster if more power is is available) but it is no longer the same installation price... not sure that it is more profitable with respect to a larger EDF subscription.

10 terminals + the supervision system to manage the power between the terminals is easily €15.000 and you need a subscription of 10x6A = 12kVA or €17 monthly
10 reinforced sockets without power management is 1500€ and you need a subscription of 10x10A = 20kVA so 24kVA or 28.28€ monthly

In short, it takes 100 years to make the savings on the subscription profitable by installing terminals


who knows companies that make this kind of driver software and the hardware that goes with it?

For my part I read docs on cascadocyclic load shedders, but in my opinion it's a bit crude as a method, even if it could work.
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by sicetaitsimple » 11/06/22, 12:42

Remundo wrote:I think that my topic may be of interest to the world, here is roughly the topic: communities (car parks, buildings) will have to install electrical charging clusters, rather at low power:
who knows companies that make this kind of driver software and the hardware that goes with it?
For my part I read docs on cascadocyclic load shedders, but in my opinion it's a bit crude as a method, even if it could work.

Yes, load shedders are still a bit bestial! It must work, but not sure that the customer whose load is completely cut off is necessarily very happy...
For companies, no, no personal experience, you will find Internet references as well as me.
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by Forhorse » 11/06/22, 12:50

No, all-or-nothing load shedding risks creating a lot of problems when charging.
It is not guaranteed that when the current is cut off, the vehicle charger will not fail, or even if it does not fail, it is not said that there is no requires user intervention to resume charging.

I am not categorical, probably for many vehicles it is not a problem, but it is not guaranteed.
And then normally, to cut the load of an EV there is a "negotiation", suddenly cut the current on the by-pass socket this negotiation.

If you want to modulate the charging power, you must go through a terminal that knows how to communicate with the vehicle to indicate at what maximum power it can charge, unlike mobile chargers (delivered as standard or purchased as an accessory) which have a fixed power (which can be adjustable before the start of charging)

All IRVE installers are normally able to do such an installation, there is plenty to choose from (chargeguru, izi-by-edf, proxiserve, wallbox, wattpark, etc... not to mention any electrician local certified IRVE and at least involved in the world of electric mobility must be able to offer a solution)

Otherwise it can also be done in DIY
For example (this is just one example) it is possible to go on a terminal like the VE-tronic WB-01: 590€ (made in France) and probably a little negotiable if you take 10 and a small home automation server (jeedom, domoticz,...) under Raspberry-Pi which with a little development is able to manage all that.
Maybe even by contacting VE-tronic directly and explaining the problem to them they are able to provide a turnkey solution.

But once again, I ask myself the question of the relevance of such an installation to earn 15€ / month on the EDF subscription?

In any case, I assume that the recharge will be chargeable (or that its cost will be broken down into the price of the service / products sold on site) so it suffices to integrate the additional cost of the subscription into the price of the charge.

The only advantage of an installation with terminals is the possibility of offering full power charging when all the slots are not in use. But that's an expensive installation for a service that's not necessarily relevant for long parking.
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by phil59 » 11/06/22, 16:12

Forhorse wrote:No, all-or-nothing load shedding risks creating a lot of problems when charging.


In any case, I assume that the recharge will be chargeable (or that its cost will be broken down into the price of the service / products sold on site) so it suffices to integrate the additional cost of the subscription into the price of the charge.

The only advantage of an installation with terminals is the possibility of offering full power charging when all the slots are not in use. But that's an expensive installation for a service that's not necessarily relevant for long parking.


On triplets, ion, c0, imiev, when you cut the plug first, we saw a lot of internal charger not liking it, and you have to pull the trigger on the car side plug, to cut the load without risk. It is a charge on a simple 220V socket, or green up.

On the other hand, on terminal, there is a pilot wire, and one can cut the load, but not sure either, that all VE restarts its load, even if the majority would do it.

Modulated power would be smarter, and it would be on T2 socket, the most classic now.

In town, it's often complicated to charge an EV, if you don't have a socket at home, and even on a terminal near your home, it's a pain to get your EV, 2-3H after ....
You have to be able to leave it there all night, without problems.
It's more a story of the number of sockets, than of the power available, to be expected...

For the majority, a single-phase 3.5 kW overnight charge will be sufficient.
If you know how to modulate this power, up to 8A, 2kW, (in load shedding), it reduces the cost considerably, if only in infrastructure...

The easiest way would be to be able to put sockets, but that could attract a certain population .... (to plug in their non-electric guitar : Lol: ).

The free, I am not for.
A payment, currently at 10-15 cts per kWh remains correct, and from 5 or 10H of occupation without charge, you start to charge 1€ per hour, the first hour, and then 5€ per hour, for example, history that the places can "turn"...

To situate, when you are not a Telsa, on the Tesla terminals, you pay €1 per minute of occupation, if your car is connected, and you no longer charge.

To locate also, we must not neglect the price of the painted location .... with us, for 8 terminals 22 kW, we have to pay almost as much "paint" posed, as the price of the terminals. Simple terminals in T2, without identification system.
To that you add the price of cables to pass underground, and you arrive, I have more in mind exactly, and you arrive at around €25.

Putting a lower power will reduce the price a little, but I doubt that we will go from 25€ to 000€....

I have a friend, who is president for about 500 inhabitants, and 000-3 municipalities, for the energy transition....
A headache for him, he would like to make "free" terminals, but it's a bit complicated to "move" the municipalities....
And as I said before, I'm not for free, even if yesterday I charged in an LIDL, 28 minutes for free, in addition to 50 kW .... while Madame was doing 2-3 races.
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by sicetaitsimple » 11/06/22, 19:49

phil59 wrote:The free, I am not for.

Agree with you, I think this is the greatest disservice to the electric vehicle. It is necessary, and it will be necessary more and more, that it runs on public or private charging stations. So a really dissuasive pricing for suction cup vehicles.
From what you say, Tesla has understood it well! 60€/h, it's really dissuasive!
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by phil59 » 12/06/22, 09:47

Why do you want to put 10 charging stations in 10A, can you tell us a little more?

There is something that can be done, it is during the development of the car park, it is to pass the sheaths for the 10 terminals, and only start with 2 or 4, and see the real needs over time.

At work, our 8 bollards are spread over 2 "posts" of 4 bollards, to minimize the cost.

Since then, our 22 kW terminals, we have lowered them to 11 kW, too many suction cup cars....

At the time I had proposed to put 2 or 4 terminals 22 kW, free (it was a condition for the CEO), and put one in DC, 18 or 36 kW, or more, but it paid, at 10 cts the kWh (we pay less than that) .... but, for different reasons, "politics", it was not done ...
This DC terminal, we could make up to 5 floors 22 kW ....
The DC terminals cost about 10 times more than AC, to give an order of magnitude .... and you have to pass the "pipes", and put the desired circuit breakers ....

As soon as you exceed 3.5 kW on a terminal, you are obliged to call on a "qualified electrician for terminals" ....
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by Remundo » 12/06/22, 13:36

OK, thank you for your feedback, which I share.

VE-Tronic, isn't it a company with Cyril Haënel?

Otherwise there is also this site which explains with speaking diagrams: https://ce6.fr/index.php/irve/
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by phil59 » 12/06/22, 14:02

What identification system have you planned or not, because completely free, plug & play?

At one point, I contacted chargemap, asking him to take the terminals, give them free of charge, and be ready to "sell" the juice at 7-8 cents per kWh...
But chargemap doesn't handle that.

The top operator in France, it's a price like 70 cts for 20 minutes, below 22 kW, above, we go to 4.50 € .... (I think).
And we don't want such a price!
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by Remundo » 12/06/22, 16:11

the question is still unresolved.

each tenant parking in a fixed place. It is a private car park.

I have 3 possible options
* totally free
* monthly plan + free kWh
* billing of kWh with or without package

as soon as I invoice the kWh, I have problems with the relief...

but if the system is too lax, the owner pays for everything...

my idea would be to have a supervision that manages both the power demands, but also records the kWh consumed.
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Re: Electrical system for supervising a load cluster for EVs




by phil59 » 12/06/22, 17:59

If it's for residential, and no one can enter, why not put only green up type outlets, using a phone app, to control the load, and bill the kWh, with a monthly flat rate, (for avoid taking and not using), including the first 50 kWh?
With consumer sonoff type boxes, for example (about 15 € now) ....


The best would be to manage it on a "raspberry"! and there you could also indirectly manage the kW that come out ....
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