Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (possibly) take place ...

Cars, buses, bicycles, electric airplanes: all electric transportation that exist. Conversion, engines and electric drives for transport ...
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Gaston
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by Gaston » 11/10/17, 13:49

Christophe wrote:We can deduce that the lithium-air batteries will have to be coupled with sacred blowers ... and the filters that go with them to not pollute the cathode!
OK, 13,8 liters per second for 100kW
An 4 1 engine liter of displacement at 3000 revolutions / minute swallows 25 liters of air per second for much less power.
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by Christophe » 11/10/17, 15:16

I do not know if the comparison is wise ... a motor naturally sucks air, not a battery.

But it's true that 20 L / s remains a reasonable bitrate ...

It is now necessary to see the quality of the filtering necessary not to pollute the cathode and the necessary aeraulic network (distribution of the air on all the cathodes) ...

A ladle I think that 500 to 1000W of fans power will be more than enough ... less than 1% of 100kW
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by chatelot16 » 11/10/17, 15:40

it is necessary to use battery adapted to the use: these battery has air, limited in power are adapted to things low consomation for a long time .... kind solar autonomous power supply or wind to provide a low power long

for a vehicle is the opposite, it takes a strong power for a short time ... so lithium air has nothing to contribute
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by Gaston » 11/10/17, 16:02

chatelot16 wrote:for a vehicle is the opposite, it takes a strong power for a short time ... so lithium air has nothing to contribute
It can bring its mass capacity, provided to support it to provide the maximum power that is never needed continuously.
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by chatelot16 » 11/10/17, 20:06

the electric car is already not glorious in autonomy, but if in addition it is limited in average power, it is necessary to stop from time to time to let the lithium battery to recharge another type of battery one does not not finished

it seems to me preferable to use only the right type of battery

if you have to mix 2 source of energy it is more logical to use tehrmic motor and battery, it is called hybrid

I am repairing an 406 which is 115ch ... what can 115ch serve well to walk 4 people ... his owner apreciates that when he wants to double that double fast ...

it confirms that a hybrid with a smaller engine would be sufficient ... with the electric and more to make a peak of power

if the lithium air had a huge mass energy one could think to make a hybrid or lithium air would replace the temphic engine ... but alas with the available figure it does not work
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by Gaston » 12/10/17, 10:39

chatelot16 wrote:the electric car is already not glorious in autonomy, but if in addition it is limited in average power, it is necessary to stop from time to time to let the lithium battery to recharge another type of battery one does not not finished
There is no question of stopping, at worst slow down a little (but if we respect the speed limits, it should not even be necessary).

BMW offers an i3 with range extender that does not exceed 80km / h when the battery is empty because the extender produces only 20kW ... and is the best-selling model of the i3 range.

chatelot16 wrote:if the lithium air had a huge mass energy one could think to make a hybrid or lithium air would replace the temphic engine ... but alas with the available figure it does not work
For me, with the figures available, it can work.

It remains to be seen the question of cost.
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by chatelot16 » 12/10/17, 11:40

Gaston wrote:BMW offers an i3 with range extender that does not exceed 80km / h when the battery is empty because the extender produces only 20kW ... and is the best-selling model of the i3 range.

it's all about the choice of engine power and battery power

should it be a mainly electric car, with small heat engine extender, or should it a car with a main engine a weak one and an electric supplement

for me it's easy to choose: the batteries are too expensive, so it is better to put as little as possible ... just enough battery for the average daily use, and no matter if every exeptionnal movement completely empty the battery : it's called a hybrid

with an extension of autonomy kind bmw it does not work if you want to cross France by highway ... 20kw it is muddled especially when you have to lug the battery weight of a mainly electric car

conversely if I take the example of the 406 with its 115ch engine: the 115ch are never used continuously otherwise we are in excess of speed ... it is replaced by a 80ch lighter gasoline and it is completed by an electric motor 30ch: we will have sufficient power for the speed allowed ... we will have the electric power and more for acceleration ... and we will have the opportunity to ride 100% electric for small daily commute, without breaking the bank with the big battery of a car only electric
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by Christophe » 12/10/17, 11:44

Uh I'm wrong or I feel that chatelot does not read the previous answers before writing ??

It has been shown in figures that it is perfectly conceivable to make hybrid batteries ... so you make the debate go around in circles ...

To make it progress: do we already have an idea of ​​the price of lithium air (stored kWh) ??
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Re: Battery: the Lithium-Air revolution will not (perhaps) not take place ...




by ENERC » 15/10/17, 18:25

To make it progress: do we already have an idea of ​​the price of lithium air (stored kWh) ??

Already it would be necessary that this techno works ......

In addition, the metal / air batteries do not have an exceptional efficiency because the losses at the cathode are important. On Zinc Air, to 50% according to Wikipedia:
Charging voltage is much higher than discharge voltage 50%


What counts when you drive is to refuel quickly. Ideally a pose of 30 minutes max every 2 hours at 120 km / h.
Energy consumed: 240 km x 17 (kWh / 100 km on the highway) -> 40 kWh
Taking a margin on the battery (and load slower than 80%), we see that the good value is around the 60 kWh.

How much does it cost today in lithium / ion? Ben less than 150 € the kWh at the assembled pack is less than 9000 €.
And the price drops by 18% a year. It is estimated that in less than 5 years, it will be cheaper than gasoline / diesel.

On the load side, we can quietly load 2C, or 120 kW. So do the extra charge in 20 minutes.

I summarize: with a current lithium-ion pack of 60 kWh, I roll 2 hours, I stop 20 minutes, I roll 2 hours, I stop 20 minutes, .... I roll 2 hours, I arrive to destination.

What more? the price?
2017: 9000 €
2018: 7380 € (-18%)
2019: 6051 € (-18%)
2020: 4962 € (-18%)
...

On the resource side, lithium is not the problem. At worst, it will be taken in sea water (0.17g of lithium / m3, or even 230 million tonnes). That is enough to produce 000 vehicles of 27 kWh! (380 * 952 (millions) * 380 (ton -> kg) / 952 (kg of lithium for a 60 kWh battery).
1 / 13400I lithium would be consumed in seawater to make 2 billion VE of 60kWh.
The problem is rather cobalt and nickel.

42% of the cobalt extracted in the world goes to (some) electric vehicles. : Cry: https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/01/no-cobalt-no-tesla/Cobalt resource

it makes me say that everyone's car battery will be LiFePO4 as is the case in China. NMC / NCA will be reserved for luxury cars.
Unless we still find a solution to put less Cobalt

In fact the solution is already there: still 2-3 years for the price, and an effort on nickel and cobalt to reach the 2 billion electric vehicles in 20 to 30 years. [We already produce more than one million electric / rechargeable hybrid vehicles per year]

This does not preclude looking for more energy dense batteries for aviation. that's good, a plane rarely uses its max power.
Carbon neutrality, we will end up getting there ....
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