Replacement of electric heating system> HP

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netshaman
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Replacement of electric heating system> HP




by netshaman » 18/07/10, 08:55

Hi, I have a house that I am renovating and which was heated entirely with electricity.
She used old "toaster" convectors.
What system would you advise me to use in the place that would be the least energy efficient?
I had thought of a low air / water heat pump with reversible fan coil units and a solar hot water tank in addition: the Daikin altherma system.
Is there a better system than that?
Is this system really economical as they claim in their documentation?
The cap would be that of the beginning of the range 5.86 Kw it has a cop of 5.56 and 2.86, hot / cold cop.
Another thing, from what outside temperature does a PAC trigger its resistance?
On the doc they say that it works up to -20 ° C without giving any real precisions.
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Re: Replacement of the heating system




by Christophe » 18/07/10, 11:01

As you do not have a hydraulic network of heat, I think that the PAC air can be a good choice ... to check according to your climatic zone ...

netshaman wrote:Another thing, from what outside temperature does a PAC trigger its resistance?


Uh what resistance? : Shock:

Except in thermodynamic DHW tanks (technological bullshit in my opinion), a heat pump has no "internal" resistance ... well I believe :D

Here is a very complete document on how PACs work: https://www.econologie.com/la-technologi ... -3389.html

There are COP / T ° curves and all you need to know about the PACs, here is its summary:

1 Choice and heat pump design
2 heat pump air / water
3 heat pump brine / water
4 heat pump water / water
5 Installation of heat pumps
6 Production of hot water and ventilation with heat pumps
7 Controls and adjustments
8 Integration heat pump heating system
9 Planning Help
10 Accessories

.pdf pages 160 and 7 Mo.


ps: Tell us more about your home and the equipment you are aiming for ...
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by chatelot16 » 18/07/10, 13:28

to have a good cop it is necessary that the temperature of the hot part is as low as possible: thus to have the largest possible surface in contact with the interior of the house: it is what makes the interest of the heating by the soil: it can be heated with water at 30 °

with the fan convector split heat pumps need a higher temperature, the cop will be less good (but still better than bread grates)

to be satisfied with a low temperature it is necessary a big flow of fan: aceptable for industrial premises but too noisy for a dwelling

for a particular application I am thinking of panels in sheets and pipes to use all the surface of the wall to heat or cool: in my ca the sheet will not be an additional price but the materials of construction

even for the outside: since using a large area without ventilation is more efficient than an exchanger and a fan, the outdoor unit will also use a network of pipes under all the sheet metal surfaces of the building: south face in winter to enjoy sun and north face in summer
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by netshaman » 19/07/10, 14:43

Christophe about the resistance, it is the one that is incorporated (it is an electrical resistance) to the CAP and which starts when the outside temperature is not enough for a normal operation, which makes fall substantially the cop.

My home is a house of 70 m2 approximately, very well isolated, with electric radiators for the moment, oriented south - west for the facade, with an interior part built in prefabric and then renovated and covered with an additional thickness of walls with at least one layer of 20 glass wool in thickness inside, and 30 in old style with flat bricks for interior walls and ceilings.
No water circuit, but we can add it, I suppose.
A PAC air / air is it not less interesting to read you on the forum with a lower cop?
Well there is also the solution to replace the electric radiators by others of the kind heart heater ceramic (Aterno) or cast iron (Airelec).
But is this solution economically usable in relation to a pac?
And I'm not talking about the fact that it works in nuclear all that, if I could pass as much as possible ...
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by Christophe » 19/07/10, 16:22

netshaman wrote:Christophe about the resistance, it is the one that is incorporated (it is an electrical resistance) to the CAP and which starts when the outside temperature is not enough for a normal operation, which makes fall substantially the cop.


Well I believe you but I never heard about it ... In any case, personally, I will not sign with such a cap ... because it is to confess of conception its limits ... and it does what power this resistance?

netshaman wrote:No water circuit, but we can add it, I suppose.
A PAC air / air is it not less interesting to read you on the forum with a lower cop?


If you do not have a network, then you have to integrate it in the costs.

Everything is a story of cost: I am not sure at all that the investment of a hydraulic system PLUS a PAC AIR-WATER is profitable compared to a good PAC AIR-AIR ...

Leaving to make a network, as much to take a heating more econological not? Your home is well insulated, so maybe a well-placed hydraulic pellet stove (for DHW) would be enough to heat everything up?

netshaman wrote:Well there is also the solution to replace the electric radiators by others of the kind heart heater ceramic (Aterno) or cast iron (Airelec).
But is this solution economically usable in relation to a pac?


The radiators inertia is just bullshit: their only interest is the tariff night ... less and less frequent ...

netshaman wrote:And I'm not talking about the fact that it works in nuclear all that, if I could pass as much as possible ...


Ah jose (bovah ah ah ah) by the saying :)
CQFD ... see my 2ieme remark above
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by netshaman » 20/07/10, 13:09

Well, I believe you but I never heard about it


What do you mean ?
Yet everywhere in the forum it is alluded to!
That's why I asked the question.
According to the forum, all the PAC are like that.
But your response leaves me perplexed.
How can a heat pump work up to -20 ° C without this system?
In the doc there is no allusion to resistance, by the way.

For the stove you would not by chance allude to Bullerjean or Bruneau?
How to heat a cloisonne volume with a stove?
To destroy the partitions?
For apart from heating only one piece how to start equitably heat in this case?
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by Christophe » 20/07/10, 15:36

netshaman wrote:Yet everywhere in the forum it is alluded to!

That's why I asked the question.
According to the forum, all the PAC are like that.


Oh? Do you have examples?

netshaman wrote:But your response leaves me perplexed.
How can a heat pump work up to -20 ° C without this system?


Ben it works as 20 ° C but with a COP much worse, times inferior to 1, and in this case, a conventional convector is better ...

But a PAC Air-X starts to work much less WIDELY before -20 ° C ... there are some whose COP collapses as soon as it freezes ...

See the example at the end of this video: https://www.econologie.com/dpe-en-france ... -4163.html

netshaman wrote:In the doc there is no allusion to resistance, by the way.


That's what bothers me: I've never seen any official doc talking about this "resistance" so ... an urban legend?

netshaman wrote:For the stove you would not by chance allude to Bullerjean or Bruneau?
How to heat a cloisonne volume with a stove?
To destroy the partitions?
For apart from heating only one piece how to start equitably heat in this case?


No but you can sheath and put a CMV ("heating").
A lot of people shovel their chimney so, there are even some examples on forums (do a search on "hot air"). https://www.econologie.com/forums/search.php

Examples: https://www.econologie.com/forums/circulatio ... t6513.html
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by gildas » 20/07/10, 18:22

Hello,

Christophe wrote:No but you can sheath and put a CMV ("heating").


This solution would be interesting but to choose an air / air heat pump instead of a stove! Sheaths that should be cheaper and less visible than splits. (Passage in the attic)

There is an electrical resistance on some air heat pumps
which trips towards + 5 ° and according to the humidity of the air, freezing fog
catastrophic for PAC air / air! (see Bruno Béranger's book on heat pumps)
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by chatelot16 » 20/07/10, 21:02

even when the evaporator outside will become an ice block the heat pump will have a bad cop but still better than 1: so no need for resistance

What is wrong is that the maximum power of this pump with a low cop gives insufficient power for the greatest cold: a supplement can sometimes be useful ...
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by scince » 20/07/10, 22:59

netshaman wrote:Another thing, from what outside temperature does a PAC trigger its resistance?



Christophe wrote:Uh what resistance?
Except in thermodynamic DHW tanks (technological bullshit in my opinion), a heat pump has no "internal" resistance ... well I believe



netshaman wrote:Christophe about the resistance, it is the one that is incorporated (it is an electrical resistance) to the CAP and which starts when the outside temperature is not enough for a normal operation, which makes fall substantially the cop.


Christophe wrote:Well I believe you but I never heard about it ... In any case, personally, I will not sign with such a cap ... because it is to confess of conception its limits ... and it does what power this resistance?



netshaman wrote:Yet everywhere in the forum it is alluded to!

That's why I asked the question.
According to the forum, all the PAC are like that.


Christophe wrote:Oh? Do you have examples?


http://www.atlantic.fr/documents/alfea- ... lantic.pdf
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