Heat a large structure

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
PATRIC
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Heat a large structure




by PATRIC » 08/04/10, 22:54

Hi,

I am interested in the different possibilities of heating a large structure.

It is a sports structure that has the following dimensions:

Length: 60 meters
Width: 35 meters
Height: 10 meters

I would like to know what is the best technology to isolate this room and heat it (up to 15 degrees).

Thank you in advance

Patrick
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 09/04/10, 18:22

The creative ideal with almost zero cost of use (apart from the initial investment) is to recover the heat of the summer (your true structure to cool to cool) to store it underground and use it in the winter to heat !!
For 15 ° C since the soil in France is often deep (a few meters) at the average annual temperature around 12 ° C The Canadian / Provencal well is already very good.
By heating it in the summer to cool down, we recover the winter heat this too!
See the very informative website:
http://www.fiabitat.com/construction-ma ... me.php#5b4
For you it is necessary to isolate the whole in a classic way (very varied in methods) and to put simple pipes sensors on the roof which recovers the heat of the superheated roof the summer to send it in the ground (boreholes or wells Canadian under your structure)
and cool in summer this roof inside with cold water coming from the ground (free air conditioning).
In winter it is the opposite, we heat the interior with the heat of the soil (preserved under more than 3m of earth (thickness can be reduced with conventional insulators).
In your case 15 ° C, already the average temperature of the ground (12 ° C variable between north and south of France) can almost suffice and make it possible to avoid an expensive thick insulation and a system too bulky.
Some references on econology to complete on google with Seasonal_thermal_storage or passive house:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-t ... t9567.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/renover-sa ... t9557.html
and front pages.

The difficulty is that in France almost nobody is competent and trained and able not to make huge physical blunders !!
A competent and creative company in Canadian / Provencal well heating and wanting to diversify would be the best solution.
In my opinion, the market is huge, for homes and structures with heating at almost zero cost if we are creative enough to implement solutions with minimized installation costs, even if technically it is not an optimum .
.
In France, there is a tendency to favor beautiful and expensive technical solutions which are therefore not very popular.
Thus whole slots are monopolized by foreigners !!
Example, nuclear power plants, ITER, at the expense of wind turbines and other green energy, Asian heat pumps for the general public.
Moreover any zero consumption system does not motivate many companies that prefer regular consumption.

In your case where are you? to know the average annual temperature and its difference from your 15 ° C objective.
But at first the Canadian / Provencal well is already a beautiful economy!
Look on econology and google the greenhouses and their solutions.
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bernardd
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by bernardd » 09/04/10, 18:31

Indeed, if the desired temperature is only 15 ° C, then using the temperature of the subsoil is ideal.

If it is a sports site, it would still be smart to provide solar thermal collectors for domestic hot water.

And finally, if it is a community, plan the use of the surface of this roof for energy production ...
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PATRIC
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by PATRIC » 09/04/10, 23:32

Hi,

Thank you for your answers!

I am located in the Paris region so solar energy level and storage of summer heat is possible.

I did not know the storage in the subsoil by Canadian / Provençal drilling.

We do not have basement. One should be created.

In fact I am looking for a technological innovation that could match my request while respecting the environment.

Which companies specialize in this field (Canadian / Provençal drilling)? What would the cost be?
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 09/04/10, 23:55

In fact I am looking for a technological innovation that could match my request while respecting the environment.

Which companies specialize in this field (Canadian / Provençal drilling)? What would the cost be?

This very clear site is an office of study which should be able to answer:
http://www.fiabitat.com/index.php
The SCOP FIABITAT Concept is a design office. Our services are aimed at both individuals, whom we assist in their projects of ecological design or renovation, and architects or project managers, as part of a project of environmental quality or energy management.
Finally, we work with communities, or any other project owner to inform and find solutions to your projects.

to contact them:
http://www.fiabitat.com/divers-contact.php

I am like you, I discover this site today reported by Aumicron initially and they are convincing in their presentation teaching !!!
I plan to contact them for my old house to improve.
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PATRIC
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by PATRIC » 10/04/10, 23:01

Thank you for the info! Indeed it seems very interesting with a possibility to heat in winter and cool in summer.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. On the other hand in term of cost this must be rather important but it would be necessary to see the amount of the subsidies

It should also see the necessary place for installation.

Is it worth it to go to the renewable energy show that will take place in Paris from 16 to 18 next June?

Patrick
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 11/04/10, 01:21

Certainly it is worth knowing those who are not known on the internet.
On the new energy-saving solutions are much easier than on the old 60-70 years full of thermal errors little repairable except to redo everything !!
Moreover if energy, oil, gas, electricity increases in price strongly, as likely in the future, the economy will be very strong and justifies a slightly higher initial investment.
Well designed, without seeking the technical optimum, but the simplest, with an exchanger in the ground below (variable depending on the structure of the soil, wet or dry, loose or hard) in the form of drilling or trench type Canadian well deep, we store the heat of the summer for the winter, and it reduces to very little energy expenditure, even if the insulation is not the maximum, therefore less expensive, by increasing the storage volume, in the underground easily accessible before the start of construction.

On a house of the 60-70 years it is more difficult and the cabinet FIABITAT indicates that it refuses to renovate this type of housing !!
So what I indicate is not often realized for this type of house that I own.
The more I think, the more I think it is possible in the form of modified solar central heating to heat the earth in summer and recover this heat in winter.
A first difficulty is that a usual central heating is at a higher temperature than 20 at 30 ° C and therefore we must change everything and increase the heating surfaces to low T, or take a low air flow T.
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bernardd
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by bernardd » 11/04/10, 08:50

The problem of land use is that drilling small diameter holes costs a fortune and is not profitable, even only up to 10m.

A backhoe trench would cost almost less, but I do not know why, it's not done in new homes even when gear is available at the beginning. And difficult in an old house :-)

The only solution I arrive at is recovered tanks, either already insulated water heaters or high capacity stainless steel tanks, 1 or 2m3, which are insulated from the outside.

With modern solar thermal collectors, insulated by vacuum, you are no longer limited by the low temperature: you can have water at 80 ° C without problem.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 11/04/10, 16:12

We agree on the substance of the problem, the cost and the total novelty, and we must change the situation at the industrial level (The cheap microwave oven was considered impossible in the 50-60 years by the magnetron specialists, too complex to machine, 100 to 1000 times more expensive, etc. and yet the Japanese with their minutia related to their language succeeded! !):
drilling small diameter holes costs a fortune

Everything depends on what is called fortune, the nature of the subsoil (sandy, clay, chalk, rock, wet, dry).
Insulating a house from the outside costs a fortune with business around 200 € the m2 for a worse result thermally and aesthetically (walls too thick, etc. ..), either on typical house with easily 200m2 outside walls, roof, to double a price of 200x200 = 40000 € minimum or more, with windows to move and double glazing (20000 € more, the case of my neighbors for almost useless), VMC double flow, central heating and boiler brand new automatic wood (10000 to 20000 € more!).
A normal renovation already costs a fortune (60000 € and more) to stay with non-zero heating expenses!
In valuing a well-placed house, it remains interesting.
There are soil drills that are not too hard for soil surveys and the price is not astronomical then for these holes or even the rent or buy dryers (some 1000 €) then no limit on the number of holes made yourself !.
A digger trench would cost almost less

Okay, some 1000 €, if the ground is soft, but if the ground is hard rock, the drilling is better and deeper (renting or buying a second-hand drill for near end could be a solution? we will not get away with 10000 to 20000 € compared to the external insulation?).
I do not know why, it's not done in new homes even when gear is available at the beginning

It is very new, and with the norms that block, nobody of professional (often little thermic) does not venture to take the risk, especially that for so new, it is difficult to be sure that the heat will be preserved of the summer to winter and then this lost investment will attract the wrath of the furious customer !!!!!!

The only solution I arrive at is recovered tanks, either already insulated water heaters or high capacity stainless steel tanks, 1 or 2m3, which are insulated from the outside.

Medium-sized conventional tanks do not allow the heat from summer to winter. Ordinary water heaters do not keep heat one week (2 from 3 days to 200 days, 100 factor, requires perfect insulation with a thickness Square root of 100 = 10 times thicker than used a few cm and so u50cm insulation of polystyrene without defect should keep the heat up to winter!!
To convince the skeptics, I write the calculation and especially it would be necessary to make the practical experience on 6mois on its solar water heater or not.
Losses by conduction via pipes and wires of arrival and departure are to be carefully removed by long plastic pipes, moisture loss often really strong and neglected, etc.
I think that even the professionals are not convinced (too new) and it is necessary to demonstrate it practice repeatedly.
They are not wrong because it is easy to have poorly valued losses, through pipes, wires, and moisture that goes through a few leaks in the interstices and carry evaporative evaporative calories through repeated condensations.
The stainless steel tanks are expensive for the m3 and are worth a lot of drilling in sandy clay soil.
You can take cheap plastic pools (20m3 to 500 € and less than 1000 € for this summer, low life?) But you have to isolate them and keep the heat of the summer for the winter is far from be guaranteed without ultra-thick insulation underground (50cm of polystyrene perfectly waterproof).
Finally, it should be noted that summer sun can heat large volumes strongly, several pools 20 to 50m3, depending on the solar collector area (you can cover the entire roof with 80m2) and the high heat available for the winter will be sufficient to heat an ordinary house with little improved insulation.
The financial optimum is to estimate, between, the improvements of insulation, the surface, the nature, simple, under vacuum, solar collectors, the nature of the thermal storage (big unknown for the professionals), by drilling, by excavation, tanks, swimming pools, etc., the mode of heat exchangers and heating air or water, etc.

The larger the volume, the easier it is and that's why the drilling is interesting because it includes a large volume of deep earth.
It requires convincing practical achievements not hiding the difficulties and seeking to lower the cost price.
This work remains adventurous because elements are little characterized and are more views of theorists like me acteullement that practice based on existing realities and tested.

You have the real experience of relatives and m3 tanks with insulation 30 to 50cm good waterproof insulation, unable to keep the heat on 6 months (180jours) with less than 50% loss ????
It is already very interesting for solar water heater, the summer serving for the winter, but with the usual consumption of 100l per day you need a swimming pool of 18m3 !!!!

Being theoretician and practical, I also tend to be wary of my theories especially forgotten effects like swimming pool humidity that leaks and cools everything.

The market of ordinary houses poorly insulated to turn into a home very low consumption is huge, possible and therefore it would be better not to wait for Japanese realizing at low prices what appeared impossible (the case of microwave oven)
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bernardd
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by bernardd » 11/04/10, 18:24

Thank you for this very interesting discussion.

I am also accustomed to joining the practice to theory, and vice versa :-)

On this long-term storage application, I have not yet had the opportunity to test in full size. But considering all the solutions that I have been able to examine, it seems to me the most reasonable for thermal storage.

To fix ideas, I think to use closed stainless steel tanks, which are not so expensive used:
for example http://www.arsilac.com/fr/arsilac-liste ... dFam=CUVES

Plastic containers are also a possibility, but their long-term resistance to 90 ° C is not acquired.

The ideal would be to find tanks of liquid nitrogen, with vacuum insulation like thermos bottles, from what I heard. But I have no more information, no price ...

Several important points:
    * A closed tank eliminates moisture evaporation problems, which are certainly the biggest loss of thermal energy.
    * The positioning of the tanks inside the volume to be heated is very important: thus, a heat transfer through the insulation is no longer a loss, but a useful heating.
    * It is not a question of storing 6 months: it is necessary to store for the days when there is no sufficient sun. I estimated that at 3 months.
    * If summer is the only one to bring the capital of heat, it is enough then that a few hours of sun compensate for the heat leaks: the autonomy is prolonged accordingly.
    * There is a balance to be found between the amount of energy stored and the amount of thermal leakage, choosing the highest possible storage temperature.
    * It seems to me that it is more interesting to have several tanks: one can then cool one while keeping a high temperature in the others.
    * To be able to keep the highest temperature interesting, and to avoid any biological problem, to use the hot water with a heat exchanger seems more effective.
    * Switching on a "pleasure" pellet stove is also an opportunity to store.


For a house that burns today 1000l of fuel oil or 2t of pellets, 10000KWh = 10MWh should be stored.

On 6 heating month, this represents 55KWh per day.

1m3 water between 20 and 80 ° C is except 70KWh error (4186J / kg. ° K x 60 ° x 1000 kg / m3 / 3600).

55KWh daily heating represents the cooling of 0,8m3 per day.

142m3 is required to store annual heat energy. That's a lot: 71m2 ground on 2m high!

But storing 8m3 on 4m2 ground and 2m high already represents 10 days of battery life.

1h of sun on 10m2 of vacuum heat sensors to 60% of efficiency will bring back about 6KWh: 80m2 brings back 48KWh for each hour of sun.

Would someone have more accurate numbers?

Still to try ...

Note: in passing, we see what is the heating of sanitary water ... thrown to the sewers : Shock:
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