Manufacturing a car and environment numbers!

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 10/11/09, 17:22

Woodcutter wrote:
On the one hand I react to a comment that I find serious (CO2 would not be of primary importance) ...


No, this is not what I wrote (CO² would not be of primary importance)

I specify my thought:

- in the case of pollution, in my opinion, we speak almost only of CO² and not enough of the other polluting emissions (whether it is the car or heating); I regret that the green bonus is only based on CO² emissions, favoring Diesel, by chance (a specialty of French manufacturers!) ...

- CO² is of course serious (for the planet; let's be clear: it is not a "toxic" for humans, nor a carcinogen, etc ...; expected induced effects - like climate change, disappearance species, climate refugees, are important)

- and despite everything, it's not just CO²!

- I think the effects of other shows on the health human beings are - THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION - underestimated, poorly understood; these pollutants are dangerous for humans (the only source I spoke of is 30 deaths per year caused by transport-related pollution for France - what is it worth ???? This is a statement a person from AFSAT - French agency for occupational health or something like that).

My belief is that the alarming increase in allergies etc is not unrelated. It is only a conviction. Nothing scientific.

I don't neglect CO²: why do you think I have equipped myself with a pellet boiler (if CO² I didn't care)? To pollute more ?????

My action plan for CO² (essentially):

- solar water heater in 2002 (replacing the fuel boiler in summer)

- replacement of a fuel oil boiler that worked perfectly (2 to 500 l) with pellets (January 3000) (by the way, reduces the profitability of CESI!)

- change in eating habits (more organic, even if it is questionable; much less meat; more seasonal and local products; garden ...); since March 2007 (the garden, before)

- "downsizing" of cars: replacement of a ZX 1.9 D + a Xantia 1.9 TD (around 4000 l of diesel / year) by 2 C1 GPL (for daily traffic) + 1 C5 GPL (now reserved for trips with 4 or more). I go to 2 l gasoline equivalent for the same mileage. So a reduction of at least 800% of CO². Ongoing / started in May 30.

Excluding "food" (not quantifiable), the consumption of fossil energy, at constant standard of living, has gone from around 7 l of petroleum derivatives (diesel, fuel oil) to 000 l (LPG counted as "gasoline equivalent "). CO² in proportion.

On the particle side: the pellet boiler emits a little more than the fuel oil boiler, but the reduction was monumental on the side of the cars, so the overall assessment (even if it is not quantified) is largely positive.

Again, despite the profitability (it is not economically profitable at the current cost of pellets!), I chose the condensing pellet boiler (a rarity), which has a better performance and especially because of the condenser, emits fewer particles.

Listed NOx and CO, the balance sheet is also very positive, even if there too, I find it hard to quantify it. For NOx, I have partial data. For CO maybe too. I have to see if I find the emissions from the oil-fired boiler ... and I will make a quantitative assessment.

Here ... I also reduce electricity, but with less success (because quite small consumer) ... LED or compact fluorescent, washing machine and dishwasher on the solar water heater ...

All that, I alluded to it, because I have not forgotten what I lived in the bush in Africa ... And all that accelerated because I could have died in March 2007 if I never had the chance to live 35 km from a university hospital.

So I understand that the way in which I highlighted the C1 to "enrich" the reflection a little - and therefore "provoke" a little - beyond the only CO² may not be understood ... I admit it . I regret, however, that it elicits a somewhat abrupt reaction - let's stick to that qualifier.
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 11/11/09, 11:26

Woodcutter wrote:
OK for the reduction of NOx, but for CO, I don't believe it for a moment, it even seems to me that LPG emits more.

...


I brought out my doc.

OK, you're right, I reversed NOx and CO.


I had promised data.

1) On the following site, a summary of studies having been made at European level:

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... ImmNPM.pdf

See in particular pages 21 for NOx, 25 for particles and 27 for CO (which would be increasing; I would therefore be wrong: increase compared to petrol; large increase compared to Diesel)
The units are specified on the ordinate.

2) Another (partial) result: the analysis ticket for my C5 during its first check (on BOSCH station - same car, same test, same day ...)

Gasoline: CO 0,071%; CO² 14,76%; HC 56 ppm; CO corrected: 0,072%

LPG: CO 0,006%; CO² 13,31%; HC 21 ppm; CO corrected 0,007
Results in% vol

And there, I no longer understand, because the CO is well divided by 10! (I reread to be sure of not having made a typing error! It is well approximately 7 hundredths in petrol mode and 7 thousandths in LPG mode). This is probably what also confused me! HC down, CO² too.

The device does not analyze NOx.

3) Other data: an "advertising newspaper from Borel" (LPG transformer)

Comparison of a Dacia Logan Diesel station wagon 1,6 l 16 V LPG with a Dacia Logan sedan 1,5 dCi 85 (will know why these donkeys compare a station wagon to a sedan!)

LPG: CO 0,306; HC 0,047; NOx 0,023; particles 0

Diesel: CO 0,470; HC 0,037; NOx 0,213; particles 0,024
Results in g / km!

The transformed Logan has been approved by UTAC ...

So there too, the CO would drop ??? NOx divided by 10; HC increasing, however ...

4) A study by ADEME:

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... tm4tLl.pdf

Explanations, in this last document, on the very contrasted results in terms of CO: certain vehicles do better, others less well than gasoline, according to a question of parameter setting when one "lifts the foot". .

I have perhaps made the right choice (I have a sequential liquid injection, considered a little more precise but also more expensive - usually it is a gas injection) ??
I have at least some explanations for my "mistake"!
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 19/11/09, 15:10

I had promised data on the actual consumption of my C1.

I was a little overwhelmed because my wife made one or the other full without noting.

Last "full":

- 28,8 l of LPG
- 465 km traveled
- use: home - work (20 km, several crossings of villages, half plain, half up the Vosges foothills / down) + a few "medium distance" trips: Rosheim-Sélestat or Rosheim-Strasbourg or 30/35 km of "4 lanes ").

So that's 6,2 l of LPG / 100 km. With that, I confirm that I can stay in the range 5 to 5,5 l over long distances (and with respect for the limitations).

Under the same conditions, same driving (although: the C1 is so pleasant and emits a particular but sympathetic tone - that I have made it "snore" a little) the C5 is around 10 to 10,5 l of LPG.

For those who are interested :

For my driving style / type of trip, on this basis, I estimate that my consumption would be 4,7 l of gasoline or 4,3 l of diesel (manufacturer data "mixed consumption" corrected) per 100 km.

Or the following fuel cost for 100 km:

€ 5,88 for petrol (1,25 per liter)
€ 4,34 for LPG (0,70 l)
€ 4,52 for diesel (1,05 l)

These are the "hypermarket" prices of the last few days where I am getting supplies.

Note that the acquisition of the "HDI" version requires the "comfort" finish (average finish from Citroën). the low end is not accessible to you in diesel. 90% of C1 / 107 / Aygo are gasoline!

List prices, for the same "comfort" finish in the 5-door version, without options, at Citroën:

- petrol: € 10
- LPG: € 11 (in my case, € 420 deducted; but taking into account the € 2 "promo" at Borel this summer on the kit); currently, count € 000
- HDI: € 11

Please note that HDI is a little more expensive than petrol + LPG transformation.

The additional cost compared to gasoline therefore depreciates in 65 km at current fuel prices in my case / 000 km without the promotion.

Compared to Diesel (without FAP !!!), purchase and operation are more advantageous for LPG.

All this "roughly", because it would be necessary to compare the cost of maintenance, wearing parts, insurance (some do discounts for "green" vehicles - I use their language, I hate!) .. .

Actual prices are much lower (but vary all the time; need to follow on the internet and negotiate). In my case: - € 700 ecological bonus (note, decreases from January 1; is paid upon registration!), - € 1 scrapping premium (note, decreases from 000 with extinction in " bevel "; this would be the order date but texts not released; currently, it is on delivery); - 2010 1 € operation "Citroën" doubles the bonus "(temporary; for the 000 years of the brand); - 90 € of commercial discount on C550 basic gasoline (is only - 1 € since November)

So I think that financially, it is also the most advantageous, even if the difference compared to Diesel (without DPF) is small! In any case, it's not a "jackpot" !!! But I maintain that it pollutes significantly less !!!

So much for the one who thought that I was disguising shameless financial arguments under "green" pretexts ... Yes, the purchase of the two C1s at the moment was purely opportunism in relation to these promos and these bonuses and these discounts and these bonuses ... The choice of LPG was made in relation to my sensitivity to health issues and in relation to emissions (especially particles) ... I say it. But I don't need people to believe me!
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 19/11/09, 17:12

To come back to the subject a little, I wondered in how many kilometers the difference in the emission rate between a "high-end average" and the C1 makes it possible to "recover" the CO² emissions necessary for the manufacture of the second? ??

I took a C5 / new generation. In its cleanest version, i.e. HDI 110 FAP, it emits 149 g of CO² per km (but for info, the petrol version 2.0 i emits 198 g!).

My C1 LPG emits, I recall, 95 g.

The delta is therefore 55 g.

According to sources cited at the very beginning, the manufacture of a BMW is estimated at 2 kg of CO². Manicore, also cited, speaks of 500 kg.

So if I divide, I come to the conclusion that if I scrap my brand new C5 (hypothetical) and replace it with a brand new C1 GPL, I "compensate" for the CO² needed to manufacture my C1 (at suppose it is the same as for a BMW - which is doubtful, there is 2 times less sheet metal, 15 times less copper wiring, 25 times less accessories, etc ...) in 45 km to 000 km. Afterwards, it's beneficial for the planet!

I'm stuck, to the point that I redid my calculations ...

All the more so when I put my old squash in the trash, the CO² impact of which during production has been more or less "amortized" (320 to 340 km each) ...

If the initial data are anyhow exact, it will become difficult to justify the fact of "pulling" old squash to length with "green" arguments! Financiers, okay ... Anti-consumerists, okay too (but at the cost of pollution ...)
0 x
User avatar
Woodcutter
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 4731
Registration: 07/11/05, 10:45
Location: Mountain ... (Trièves)
x 2




by Woodcutter » 19/11/09, 22:35

Did67 wrote:[...]
So much for the one who thought that I was disguising shameless financial arguments under "green" pretexts ... [...]
Aheum .... :frown:
0 x
"I am a big brute, but I rarely mistaken ..."
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 20/11/09, 12:15

Yes, well, ok ... I had badly digested what I perceived as an implication ... There you go. I put a task ... It's not nice, I could have dispensed with it. But you had hit my sore spot. I accept a lot of ideas (except the extremes and the very extremes, those of all kinds of Ayatollahs too, etc ...) but I overreact when you misrepresent mine ... Probably a kind of " pride in my ideas "(while otherwise, I am not).

Much more interesting: again, we see in my figures, the margin between reality and "green marketing" (the ad that promotes LPG with the argument "fuel half the price", ignoring overconsumption - or mentioning it in small form in the text - and comparing LPG to the same petrol car, more greedy than its Diesel version).

So again, my opinion: LPG is a bit profitable for the portfolio; but above all it is clearly less polluting emissions (if we look a little further than the CO² alone). So, except to switch to electric (and there it will be a much more marked break compared to fossil carbon and other emissions), why not LPG ???

PS: I learned this week that the production potential of LPG (which I recall is a "by-product" of the oil refinery, once burned in flares; this shows that it is not an "alternative", but an "opportunity" or a "niche") in France is around 10 times consumption. So there is room! But don't all get started anyway !!!
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79330
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11046




by Christophe » 23/03/10, 15:56

Ah the manipulation of numbers is quite an art:

A) On the one hand we have this:

Christophe plus wrote:- Water: in 10 years, almost 50% reduction to 640 L per car.


B) On the other this:

Image

C) 640 L versus 35 L is more than an approximation error ... : Mrgreen:

The 1st can only be the final assembly, the 2nd everything from A to Z (from "mine to road"?)?

Mystery ... in short, having the eco-balance of a car is not yet won ...
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79330
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11046

Re: Manufacturing a car and the environment, figures!




by Christophe » 22/01/19, 14:16

Digging up: someone has up-to-date figures? :?:
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79330
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11046

Re: Manufacturing a car and the environment, figures!




by Christophe » 23/09/20, 13:19

Christophe wrote:Digging up: someone has up-to-date figures? :?:


1 +!
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79330
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11046

Re: Manufacturing a car and the environment, figures!




by Christophe » 16/04/21, 11:40

We find this kind of stickers that circulate on the RS with different variants:

167280282_128641342603125_5408700576682485924_n.jpg
167280282_128641342603125_5408700576682485924_n.jpg (35.83 KB) Viewed times 2284


167588550_3023595931210118_384314839366832426_n.jpg
167588550_3023595931210118_384314839366832426_n.jpg (31.89 KB) Viewed times 2284
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "New transport: innovations, engines, pollution, technologies, policies, organization ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 320 guests