boiler replacement oil by pellets review

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
vidoc67
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boiler replacement oil by pellets review




by vidoc67 » 06/04/09, 13:52

Hello,

We have as bcp the project to change our oil boiler with a pellet boiler.

Our consumption of approximately 2300 l of fuel oil per year for a 1973 house of 130 m² and 3 people including DHW. We enlarge the floor for a total surface of 300 m² and this very well insulated floor is not heated (apart from the slab). We estimate our future consumption at 3000 l, or around 6t of pellets. I forgot we are in 67.

We want a textile silo, why because a good silo is a guarantee of proper functioning, we do not have time to make a silo which condemns 2 windows in the basement and the exp of our tank of 5000 l of fuel oil shows that the day you want to change the installation you have to break and redo it at a cost. In short...

We did quotes at Okofen, ETA, Guntamatic, Hargassner and Paradigma (TRYBA), the Alsace region is well supplied with an Austrian brand in terms of proximity to spare parts, the parent company France are here.

It shows :

OKOFEN the boiler on the cheapest paper. But the basic silo and too small a 6t silo = surout, it's an 8-22kw. We are offered a screw conveyor system, from what I read that can cause breakdowns?

ETA PE 5-25 kw per suction: 2 quotes one by our usual heating engineer who charges us an exorbitant price on the boiler and the silo ... excluded. 1 other recommended by ETA France, is 2000 euros cheaper on the boiler alone. The installation at price level and fairly close to Okofen after negotiation with a 6t silo. Quality goes to ETA.

Guntanatic Biostar 23 by aspiration: I like the boiler because it's the one whose least complex maintenance we can do alone, the others is not far from 200 euros per year and the yield seems very good. The only problem is the price a little more expensive for an installation by direct circuit which is bcp less good it seems that an installation by robotic mixing valve as proposed by the others ...

Hargassner: the complete bid insatllator OKOFEN which also does not advise, another comes and pushes us to install ETA and does not give us a quote on this brand. Dommmage.

Paradigma: so don't go to tryba their quote is a line and they are 20% more expensive than another installer. For a disguised Okofen it's expensive the difference ... we give up.

So a total of 7-8 quotes.


All quotes were made with solar and we arrive at a range of 21800 to 24000 euros, pellet boiler, silo ~ 6t, 300 mixed tank, 2 panels, regul, removal of 2 boilers, tank removal, chimney casing.

Now remains to choose:

ETA PE 25 (Viessmann solar)
Guntamatic Biostar aspiration (solar ESE)
OKOFEN screw (Sonnenkraft solar)

Your opinion on these brands?
Solar or not?

Regarding the tax credit, the Gunta is sold in a box version with a textile silo, is the silo eligible or not? a priori no but how is it done in this case if the installer cannot give the price of the silo alone .. ??

It is interesting to compare the quotes on the MO the price of the parts etc ... we see immediately the scammer of the professional.

: Lol:
Last edited by vidoc67 the 06 / 04 / 09, 13: 56, 1 edited once.
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by Did67 » 06/04/09, 15:25

As far as I am clear: I chose Okofen, after studying the same brands except ETA.

I have the PESK 15 (condensing, therefore). Aspiration model.

I don't think direct power is a source of failure. It is in any case a little simpler than aspiration (at Okofen, the aspiration takes up the pellets extracted by ... a screw). But if you prefer suction, all Okofen models also exist in suction (there is a slight additional cost).

The choice is ultimately a bet! Arriving in the 5 or 6 best brands, it's like choosing between 5 or 6 cars of the same caliber. Everyone will be convinced that theirs is the best.

The first criterion: after-sales service. As you say, we are lucky in Alsace, with the headquarters of importers often on site (or, in the case of Okofen, a local representative, with a stock of parts, in Colmar - I went to see for believe him)

The second: the competence of the heating engineer in terms of pellets. I keep helping people on different forums left stranded by their heating engineers who unfortunately often don't know much about pellet boilers!

The third: the intrinsic performance of the machine (efficiency, but also emissions - particles, CO, NOx, etc.). And there, if you read German, you go to the following site and you will find the test protocols by an independent Austrian body. You make like me, an excel comparative table ... You put the price in parallel and finally, the choice will not be so complicated.

http://blt.josephinum.at/index.php?id=653

Finally, I do not share your point of view on silos: self-built is the cheapest formula that allows you to "stick" exactly to the available space! Okay, this is work.

See my photos there: https://www.econologie.com/forums/photos-cha ... t5995.html
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by dirk pitt » 06/04/09, 15:28

just two things:

1- before choosing the brand, choose the power well. if you went through these forumsI've said it at least 100 times. and some problems reported on the posts are due to an overpower proposed in an almost systematic way by the installers. (fuel oil habit)
so above all, make a thermal study of sizing of the boiler. it's not like the fuel oil that stops and starts instantly. if you give me a little more info on your house and the occupancy habits of the house, I can give you a first approach based on your current fuel consumption.

2- for the solar water heater, you should know that you will NEVER pay for it. it's not that I want to prevent you from putting one but with your pellet boiler that will work most of the year (in the 67, it curdles a little) the solar water heater is just to look pretty and give back the money from our taxes (subsidies) to installers.
do the math to convince yourself
personally, after 4 seasons with pellets, hot water is made for 6 to 7 months with pellets and the rest of the time with electricity and this is what is the cheapest in investment AND use. (simple and cheap dual-energy tank)

last thing: I do not give you advice on the brand because I have an okofen and I am very satisfied with it. : Cheesy:
it has an advantage: the mechanics are simple and there is no oxygen sensor (source of failure)
for the silo, you don't have the possibility of building an exterior lean-to against your house? then, pneumatic or screw transport depending on the location of the silo / boiler.
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by vidoc67 » 06/04/09, 15:51

dirk pitt what information for the house? medium insulation 1 floor + basement + double glazing, French windows and south-east facing living room window, fuel oil consumption ~ 3000 l, use of insert during intermediate seasons.

The calculation on the solar I did it and it is true that the amortization and at least 15 to 20 years but the energy which costs the least expensive and that which one does not pay ... at 300 euros the ton of granule my sunscreen could quickly become interesting.

Now with the tax credit, a solar installation costs 3000 euros to simplify, if I even borrow 3.5% for my heating over 10 years, for example, interest costs me close to 3000 euros, by doing solar + heating. hope to have a PTZ at zero rate, the amortization of the whole approach 7 years.

Okofen yes I like and these in my top with ETA and Gunta but the only steel heating element is guaranteed for how long? do you do the maintenance yourself?
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by dirk pitt » 06/04/09, 16:09

vidoc67 wrote:dirk pitt what information for the house? medium insulation 1 floor + basement + double glazing, French windows and south-east facing living room window, fuel oil consumption ~ 3000 l, use of insert during intermediate seasons.


how many steres of wood you spend (on average) in addition to fuel oil
does your boiler make hot water?
how many people ?
intermittent heating rate: is it at reduced temperature at night, during the day, what percentage over the full season (with WE and holidays)

vidoc67 wrote: at 300 euros per ton of granule my sunscreen could quickly become interesting.
?


well no, just look in detail.
roughly speaking, pellets cost 1.5 times less than electricity with equal basic energy.
making hot water with the granule being less efficient (yield) makes that in the end, it's about the same price is in the 8cts per kwh.
at the rate of 3000kwh of hot water for 4 people per year, that makes in the 240 euros per year of hot water.
for a water heater (even subsidized) at 3000 euros + emmerdememts and parts to change or liquid to replace, which is in 4000 over 15 years, it makes looooong return on investment.
well, that said, in 15 years, the electricity will be worth maybe 4 euros per kwh.
for the pellet, I bet that it will be the energy which will increase less quickly.
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by vidoc67 » 06/04/09, 16:34

Wood in addition to little fuel oil, say 2 cubic meters.
Hot water made only by fuel oil.
3 personnes.

Reduced temperature (18 °) from 23:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. and from 9:17 a.m. to 60:XNUMX p.m., XNUMX% of the time since the boiler only does hot water from ~ May to ~ September.

ECS éléctrique bof ... I gave in the past and the electricity will take easy 30% soon ...

I prefer to compare solar + granules compared to the granule alone I estimate my consumption of granules for the DHW in this case at 1t (I will have an additional piece of water soon) and we are quite a consumer.
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by dirk pitt » 06/04/09, 17:14

vidoc67 wrote:Wood in addition to little fuel oil, say 2 cubic meters.
Hot water made only by fuel oil.
3 personnes.

Reduced temperature (18 °) from 23:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. and from 9:17 a.m. to 60:XNUMX p.m., XNUMX% of the time since the boiler only does hot water from ~ May to ~ September.


counting about 3000DJU on average in your region, it gives me losses of about 1.25W / m3. ° C which is not great but consistent for a house of the 70s isolated afterwards.

with these losses there, to maintain 19 ° inside by -15 ° outside, you need a boiler of 14kw.
if we bring the surface to 300 m2 for similar losses, it takes about 26kw. on the other hand in this case, you will consume not far from the double of the current one is approximately 4500 liters of fuel oil or 9 tonnes of pellets. what makes you say that your consumption will only go from 2300 to 3000litres by more than doubling the volume to be heated ???

vidoc67 wrote:
ECS éléctrique bof ... I gave in the past and the electricity will take easy 30% soon ...

I prefer to compare solar + granules compared to the granule alone I estimate my consumption of granules for the DHW in this case at 1t (I will have an additional piece of water soon) and we are quite a consumer.


Well I said that currently the price was similar between electric and granulated to make DHW alone (depending on the yield) but even if the two increase a lot (say 50% on average which is a lot) it's 450 euros per year of hot water is still almost 9 years to make a profit of 4000 euros of investment.

I personally plan to also install a solar DHW but it will be either self-built or in commercial elements assembled by me. for it to be profitable in 5 years, the investment must not cost me more than 2000 euros.
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by Did67 » 06/04/09, 17:21

dirk pitt wrote:
2- for the solar water heater, you should know that you will NEVER pay for it. it is not that I want to prevent you from putting one but with your pellet boiler which will work most of the year (in the 67, it curdles a little) the solar water heater,.


I often agree with Dirk, but here I would qualify a little:

1) I just turned off my Okofen this morning, I started it in early November it seems to me ... No, we potentially have 6 months without a boiler in Alsace ... Continental climate: colder l winter, warmer in summer ...

2) I agree with him on the pure financial profitability of CESI; my CESI was potentially depreciable over 15 years compared to fuel oil, but compared to pellets, it is less ...

3 ° That said, you must avoid using the boiler to heat just the water; the performance is deplorable ...

4) So there is the question of the second source for the summer:

a) electricity, yes: but what price evolution? and we must not be "philosophically" against nuclear power ...

b) solar: undoubtedly not strictly profitable from a financial point of view, at least for the moment, but more satisfactory from a moral point of view; and what a pleasure to shower when the hot water is "solar"; it's not just the dough in life; so I am actually and consciously prepared to pay a little more, it is true.
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by vidoc67 » 06/04/09, 17:28

Why 2300 to 3000l.

The floor is "heated" today by the slab, which will not change tomorrow even with a parquet floor.

In the middle of winter this year by -15 ° it was still 10 ° in the morning so the heating that will be needed is only an "extra" to reach 19 °. It is very well insulated and the attic will be a minimum in addition soon.

All the installers who came seemed to agree with my estimate.

I think that a boiler which modulates <= 25 kw is largely sufficient. I also asked the question of switching to a 15kw, bcp I was told that at full power indeed it will be very fair ...
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by Did67 » 06/04/09, 17:30

vidoc67 wrote:d

... how long is the steel heating element only guaranteed? do you do the maintenance yourself?


Guarantee: from memory = 5 years

Steel, honestly, does not worry me: when it is correctly used, a pellet boiler does not count; inside, it's dry: the "soot" settles in the form of a fine felting ... Nothing to do with the corrosive condensations of certain wood-fired boilers ...

I know that this argument is put forward by the manufacturers using the chamotte (because inheritance of the wood boiler with certain brands). Personally, I do not believe it. It is only mine.

The maintenance, I did it "at least" this summer (3 or 4 months of operation only). It's totally doable for a DIY medium (it's just messy, not really complicated). You have to be careful and methodical (disassemble and reassemble in order).
Last edited by Did67 the 06 / 04 / 09, 17: 46, 1 edited once.
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