Hydraulic energy: choose a small turbine

Renewable energies except solar electric or thermal (seeforums dedicated below): wind turbines, energy from the sea, hydraulic and hydroelectricity, biomass, biogas, deep geothermal energy ...
Saint Esteben
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by Saint Esteben » 18/03/09, 06:45

Hello Stephan and everyone.
Already a big thank you for the information.
Given your knowledge of turbis, I'll be curious to know how much my turbine negri, with an inlet of diameter 400 mm, and an output also of 400 mm, with a flared siphon which is 1 meter, swallows water to the second , because there too, I heard engineering students answer me 185 l / s for a neighbor who has 7 meters of fall, and a francis turbine (same problem as me, it swallows too much water, yield: 3,5 kw: hour), whereas for my black turbine, 4 meters of fall, I answer 250 l / s !!!!
Thank you for your answer, as much to tell you that my mill being my great passion, I enjoy with this forum. The only problem is that I can not have internet in the village where the mill is, so I have to come back to town to write to you, which sometimes explains my delay in my responses. question of installing wimax soon! Have a good day.
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by Christophe » 18/03/09, 10:33

Saint Esteben, have you seen this "simulator"?

https://www.econologie.com/calculer-la-p ... -4035.html
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by -Stephan- » 18/03/09, 10:35

Hello Saint Esteben (& the company)!

It is perfectly impossible, with the only data "inlet and outlet diameters = 400mm" to determine the nominal flow rate of the turbine. The estimate would already be a little less random with the upper and lower diameters of the wheel and the water inlet height (dimension which corresponds to the height of the guidelines, the guidelines being the movable fins mounted on a pivot all around the wheel). With a photo of the wheel alone, I could determine if the overall shape can stick with a 4m drop. In 1930, the Kaplan was not yet known (the Austrian engineer Viktor Kaplan died in 1934, not very long after having filed his patent), it is therefore the Francis which fitted the falls from 2 to about 200m (today hui, some Francis equip sites with more than 600m of fall). It is obvious that a wheel under 2m will not be designed at all like a wheel under 200m! The ideal would be to find, even "with a ladle", the characteristics of the original site, with at least the height of fall and the speed of rotation.
185 l / s remain plausible. 250 l / s also ...
It is possible that the rotation speed chosen when the turbine is re-fitted does not correspond to the characteristics of the impeller. A few revolutions per minute, one can lower the output of the machine in a terrible way! If we are too fast (the most frequent error), the turbine swallows too much water, and the poor performance at the impeller is further aggravated by the friction of the water throughout the machine (which is called the "pressure drop").

The flared "siphon" at the turbine outlet is called "diffuser", or, more commonly, "vacuum cleaner". Its role is twofold:
1- It makes it possible to recover the height of fall between the turbine wheel and the water return level. Thus, it is not necessary to flood the turbine downstream of the mill: it can be placed (and this is very convenient!) A little higher. A little higher, yes, but you shouldn't overdo it, and each machine has its own limits (risk of "cavitation").
2- Given that this "vacuum cleaner" is an inverted truncated cone (with a small area at the inlet and a large area at the outlet), and that the water is theoretically incompressible and "indecompressible", the flow slows down between the wheel and the end of this "vacuum cleaner". This slowing down of the water, a sort of "braking", is endowed with kinetic energy which is reflected on the turbine, increasing its efficiency.
It is for these two reasons that the Francis, Kaplan and Banki turbines are called "reaction turbines", because "the action" is twofold: once before the turbine, by pressure; and once after, by depression (this is not the case with Pelton turbines or paddle wheels, which are "single-action", and which lose the height of fall located between the wheel and the return of water ).
If there is the slightest entry of air into this "vacuum cleaner" (corrosion, defective gaskets, etc.), the turbine begins to function very badly, up to an efficiency, in extreme cases, of 0%! If you see air bubbles at the output of the "vacuum cleaner", you also have a problem on this side (very common problem on old machines).

Keep loving your mill! It is possible, in a future not necessarily far, that this source of energy is your survival!
Yours truly!
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by -Stephan- » 18/03/09, 10:55

I forgot to specify, about the "vacuum cleaner", that it is absolutely imperative that its end (the large section) permanently soak in the water of the tailbay. To avoid defusing caused by eddies, it is estimated that this end should be plunged at least 30cm from the surface (be careful to clean the bottom under the outlet: if it is too close and the water cannot drain freely, once again the yield drops!). I have seen mill owners cut the end of this vacuum cleaner above the water level ... From a machine that did not work (for other reasons), we went to a machine that did not work. didn't work at all ...
@ +!
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by Saint Esteben » 26/03/09, 08:55

Hello everybody,
Following your advice, I wrote to Toul, and a very nice gentleman phoned me, and explained that his smaller turbine consumed more than 500 l / s. So I will continue my research elsewhere. If I find, I tell you the news.
Jean Michel.
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by -Stephan- » 26/03/09, 11:23

Hello everyone, especially Saint Esteben!

In fact, I feel like we're going around in circles ... because we focused on the initial idea of forum : "choose a small turbine", without trying to go further or to frame the project.

We should go back to the basic questions (and, above all, answer them! ...):
1- Producing electricity: ok, but for what purpose? (self-consumption, resale on a network, restoration of a site in the respect of its past, creation of an educational tool, fun, challenge, fun, nostalgia, etc.)
1-bis (derived from 1-) What are we looking for: a minimum power or daily production (self-consumption), an optimization of the potential of the watercourse (resale on a network), a pageant, a tool demonstrator, etc. ?
2- What budget? (overall for the installation - but on what time period? -, and then periodic for maintenance)
3- What are the characteristics of the site? (old mill easy access, in the mountains, sensitive to frost, well or poorly protected from floods, with much or little space, in good condition, on the verge of ruin, with a supply channel, leak , right of water in good or due form or litigious, fishermen pests or correct, Local governments and / or departmental petty or lax, vandalism possible, etc.)
4- What is possible to use on this site? Or what to create, transform, demolish, etc. ? (channels to be cured, existence or not of gates of entrance of water, cofferdams, valves, chamber of water, etc.)
5- What are the characteristics of the watercourse? (small quiet river, impetuous torrent, constant, dry 6 months of the year, etc.)
6- What are the buyer's capacities or desires? (excellent handyman who seeks to make the most of it by himself, good handyman who does not have too much free time, not good handyman but who knows what he wants to achieve, passionate ready to make huge sacrifices for his hobby , poorly married who needs a "secret garden", etc.)
7 - Could the turbine already in place not be suitable? (study on the real capacities of the machine, adaptation possible or not to the site, and / or the objectives defined in 1- and 2-, etc.)
8- If it is essential to change the turbine, what option to take? (new, used, old and proven technology, high efficiency modern concepts, return to questions 1-, 2-, and others, etc.)

Well, we could ask questions like that for two days! But it is nevertheless essential to know at least the essence of the project to advise with good sense in an almost definite direction. While knowing that the advisers are not the payers ...

Yes, at THEE, they are very nice! What surprises me is that they did not propose the 300 diameter turbine. But I am well placed to know that it exists: it is I who realized the model of foundry for the blades, there is a vayraine of years! (A foundry model is a part, or set of parts, that makes it possible to make the mold - usually made of sand - into which the molten metal will be injected).
I suspect they have evaded the problem, because they know full well that, from a strictly financial point of view and profitability (see the question 6- who does not look at them), it does not hold water ...

Good thought to all!
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by Saint Esteben » 26/03/09, 12:01

Hello,
For me things are simple; I have a turbine that swallows about 200 l / s, having a debir of 140 l / s, I am looking for a turbine that adapts to my flow., The turbine proposed and swallows 500 l / sa can be a pipe d 300 mm input, depending on the drop height! this detail was not discussed because the requested rate was too high. On the other hand, I simply wonder if by changing the propeller of the turbine, we could not decrease the consumption of the turbine, because my turbine dates from 1940, since it could be that the piece which turns thanks to the pressure of the water has evolved ???, one could be a better yield. I was also given the phone of a Mr. Patisson who manufactures precisely the turbine propellers, I will get in touch with him to see if there is no way to improve the efficiency while decreasing the consumption of water? Do we ever know ? I decided to exploit all the tracks. Good day and see you next time, and thanks again for your participation in this forum.
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by Saint Esteben » 02/04/09, 05:45

Christophe wrote:Saint Esteben, have you seen this "simulator"?

https://www.econologie.com/calculer-la-p ... -4035.html


Thank you Christophe for this link that will be useful, but right now I'm waiting for a tractopele to evacuate the rubbish that clog the entrance and exit of the mill, to then do the calculations! I was waiting for it last week, but it was postponed until next week. Thereafter, I inform you. Thank you.
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by raymon » 02/04/09, 10:20

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by patou » 03/04/09, 21:23

Saint Esteben wrote:
Christophe wrote:Saint Esteben, have you seen this "simulator"?

https://www.econologie.com/calculer-la-p ... -4035.html


Thank you Christophe for this link that will be useful to me, but right now I am waiting for a tractopele to evacuate the rubbish that clog the entrance and exit of the mill, to then do the calculations! I was waiting for it last week, but it was postponed until next week. Thereafter, I inform you. Thank you.


I make a turbine is a simple osberger photo link:

https://www.econologie.com/fichiers/partager/TURBINE.jpg

in the photo we can see the 2 disks that I had laser cut in a company.it is not expensive.
this type of turbine has a very good performance and easy realization for a particular.
my turbine supplied me 2 kw with 2.7 m of fall.
before I had mounted a small black reclaimed turbine that produced me 600 watts in CONSUMPTION practically as much water. then the yield of the negri !!!!!!!!!!!
I still have this little turbine.
you can come to see my installation I live in the Vosges near the balloon of Alsace.
other thing the osberger turbine is identical to the turbine blanki
here is a link to know all you need to achieve it

http://clients.newel.net/particulier/amader/Bkturb1.htm

http://www.jlahydro.be/produits_turb1.html

I'm lucky I found an address that matches your speed

http://jlawillot.chez.com/references/reference.htm

link to calculate the speed of the water at the inlet of the turbine

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbine_Pelton

calculation: root 2gh
for you 4 m of fall it is 8.85 meters per second
amicalement
patou
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