http://penvern.freezee.org
Edit modo: HS site
Geothermal: thermodynamic information on heat pumps
Hello
I did my BTS project on floor heating systems by geothermal energy and heat pump.
In the case of geothermal energy we use either a sensor buried 80 cm below the ground in which we circulate water this water is at 14 ° all year thanks to the thermal and insulating capacity of the earth. The plumbing which represents the buried exchanger makes an area of 200m² for an average house. Unable to plant trees in the garden. Otherwise we use a vertical sensor as with André but the drilling is very expensive, the best is that this drilling leads to a source of hot water as that you compensate for the cost of exorbitant work by a cost of use derisoir not to say free (in Sweden it exists much more than in France). Otherwise, a machine is used to heat the water. The heat pump (a fridge that gets hot) has the advantage of having a COP of 2.5 to 3 (performance coefficient). That is to say, it consumes 1000w of electricity to provide 2500 to 3000w of heating. You can use an oil or other boiler but know that EDF offers you 40% discount on your electric bill if your house is well insulated and your installation corresponds to the vivrelec standard.
In addition, the heat pump can be reversible thanks to a 4-way valve. This allows you to reverse the operating cycle; it is cold in the house in summer. You can use a very pleasant heating floor for use, no unsightly radiator and an inertia allowing you to heat the house during off-peak hours. But it is expensive to install. Otherwise installs fan coils it is ugly and noisy but price level we find it. if you do not put a heat pump you can circulate the water that passes through the garden to your fan coil units in summer it will make you a very pleasant cooling system.
FYI a heat pump does not cost more than a good boiler from 1500 to 4500 euro for 200m² to heat.
here are links to shemas to understand. doc word geothermal
heat pump
I did my BTS project on floor heating systems by geothermal energy and heat pump.
In the case of geothermal energy we use either a sensor buried 80 cm below the ground in which we circulate water this water is at 14 ° all year thanks to the thermal and insulating capacity of the earth. The plumbing which represents the buried exchanger makes an area of 200m² for an average house. Unable to plant trees in the garden. Otherwise we use a vertical sensor as with André but the drilling is very expensive, the best is that this drilling leads to a source of hot water as that you compensate for the cost of exorbitant work by a cost of use derisoir not to say free (in Sweden it exists much more than in France). Otherwise, a machine is used to heat the water. The heat pump (a fridge that gets hot) has the advantage of having a COP of 2.5 to 3 (performance coefficient). That is to say, it consumes 1000w of electricity to provide 2500 to 3000w of heating. You can use an oil or other boiler but know that EDF offers you 40% discount on your electric bill if your house is well insulated and your installation corresponds to the vivrelec standard.
In addition, the heat pump can be reversible thanks to a 4-way valve. This allows you to reverse the operating cycle; it is cold in the house in summer. You can use a very pleasant heating floor for use, no unsightly radiator and an inertia allowing you to heat the house during off-peak hours. But it is expensive to install. Otherwise installs fan coils it is ugly and noisy but price level we find it. if you do not put a heat pump you can circulate the water that passes through the garden to your fan coil units in summer it will make you a very pleasant cooling system.
FYI a heat pump does not cost more than a good boiler from 1500 to 4500 euro for 200m² to heat.
here are links to shemas to understand. doc word geothermal
heat pump
0 x
Hello pitmix
No no my drilling did not cost expensive it took an afternoon with an auger and I fell into the water, at 5 meters I pump the water at 12c I cool it to 5 or 6 c and I return it 8 to 10 meters further (the measures are rounded because I translate the feet to you,
What a beautiful summer I air condition and I make hot water at the same time
If you do not make your hot water with the air conditioning it is an imbecile arrangement to lose all this hot water that you are obliged to do the same for your domestic use.
Andre
No no my drilling did not cost expensive it took an afternoon with an auger and I fell into the water, at 5 meters I pump the water at 12c I cool it to 5 or 6 c and I return it 8 to 10 meters further (the measures are rounded because I translate the feet to you,
What a beautiful summer I air condition and I make hot water at the same time
If you do not make your hot water with the air conditioning it is an imbecile arrangement to lose all this hot water that you are obliged to do the same for your domestic use.
Andre
0 x
Hello pitmix
l, winter I heat only with the heat pump and I take the water of the ground for the evaporator, l, winter the domestic water is made only with a tank of 60 gallons imp 250 liters, before I did it with the heat pump in winter but I clean it, I found that it worked a pump factory for the economy, as the current is not too expensive,
in summer I condition with the heat pump the water of 2 tanks of 250 liters each is used for the condenser, and when everything is hot I take the water from the ground for the condenser with return hot water to the sewer,
(it is only the excess heat that the heaters cannot absorb, there are limits of temperature and pressure to respect for freon, if it is very hot in summer and the heat pump works for several hours it is necessary operating in this way, regulation is tricky if you want good performance.
This is done completely automatic, I had the project of installing a programmable automaton to remove all this complex relay circuit that I mounted ...
when I have time, the pantone keeps me too busy right now
Andre
l, winter I heat only with the heat pump and I take the water of the ground for the evaporator, l, winter the domestic water is made only with a tank of 60 gallons imp 250 liters, before I did it with the heat pump in winter but I clean it, I found that it worked a pump factory for the economy, as the current is not too expensive,
in summer I condition with the heat pump the water of 2 tanks of 250 liters each is used for the condenser, and when everything is hot I take the water from the ground for the condenser with return hot water to the sewer,
(it is only the excess heat that the heaters cannot absorb, there are limits of temperature and pressure to respect for freon, if it is very hot in summer and the heat pump works for several hours it is necessary operating in this way, regulation is tricky if you want good performance.
This is done completely automatic, I had the project of installing a programmable automaton to remove all this complex relay circuit that I mounted ...
when I have time, the pantone keeps me too busy right now
Andre
0 x
All this is very good, so you did your installation yourself for the most part.
Regarding the programmable controller you want to use it to regulate the temperature of your tanks and switch on pumps. You will always need to rework your devices I do not think that the contacts of the PLC support the interlocking of the motors. But it is true that it will save you space especially if you use modular relays like "Finder" or "Telemecanic". But all this at a price ... unless it is your job. Parcontre I find it a pity that you can not return the water to the groundwater that will avoid all this regulation. The risk of clogging the strainer is caused by limescale which precipitates from 65 ° or for another reason?
Regarding the programmable controller you want to use it to regulate the temperature of your tanks and switch on pumps. You will always need to rework your devices I do not think that the contacts of the PLC support the interlocking of the motors. But it is true that it will save you space especially if you use modular relays like "Finder" or "Telemecanic". But all this at a price ... unless it is your job. Parcontre I find it a pity that you can not return the water to the groundwater that will avoid all this regulation. The risk of clogging the strainer is caused by limescale which precipitates from 65 ° or for another reason?
0 x
Hello pitmix
The system I built it completely apart from buying the compressor and the exchangers, pumps, evaporator fan, condenser, it's as big as a refrigerator all in the same box, save the electrical part and relay in a box to my height seated on a small bench so that I can delve into it, which was; it was necessary to make copper piping well to weld with silver, to empty the system with an old compressor for several hours then fill with freon 22 find the bionne charge
so that it works well at all speeds and respect the compressor amperage 28 amperes maximum at 220volts,
when I take regulation it is not water that is easy it is the pressure of the freon as a function of the temperature in the exchangers. normally all the regulation is done by pressurized valves which control the flow of water, but they are adjustable and when the freon is hot it is rather delicate to adjust.
For the reversing valve it is much simpler the mine the pilot valve is incorporated into the main compact valve.
The return of water in the earth when it is hot it is not limestone but a kind of green algae which makes sticky water in the long run and this clogs the fine grating on the point buried at of water table.
as in summer the amount of water returned to the tablecloth is negligible, it is better to send it down the drain, I am not sure that returning hot water to the earth is good water from the earth must stay cold
it keeps the bacteria asleep and it remains in its natural state, l, winter I return water sometimes to 4c in large quantities it does not disturb the tablecloth but the hot water I am not sure that it is good, Anyway, the quantity that there is is immense, the St. Lawrence River is not very far and there is no shortage of broth.
For the programmable automaton it is Allen Bradley, it is not yet installed I am currently working with power relays and for the control of solid state timed or other relays and lots of fillage it is all security and timer, protection, detection if the exchanger does not freeze ect ,,
excessive or too low pressure of freon, that makes a factory and I am the only one to rummage inside, the problem if I am absent who will repair such an assembly not traditional? This is the problem with all these handyman constructions, it dies with the builder. Except for the wood stove it is simple.
This assembly is resever to the experienced handyman, but it is very effective.
Andre
The system I built it completely apart from buying the compressor and the exchangers, pumps, evaporator fan, condenser, it's as big as a refrigerator all in the same box, save the electrical part and relay in a box to my height seated on a small bench so that I can delve into it, which was; it was necessary to make copper piping well to weld with silver, to empty the system with an old compressor for several hours then fill with freon 22 find the bionne charge
so that it works well at all speeds and respect the compressor amperage 28 amperes maximum at 220volts,
when I take regulation it is not water that is easy it is the pressure of the freon as a function of the temperature in the exchangers. normally all the regulation is done by pressurized valves which control the flow of water, but they are adjustable and when the freon is hot it is rather delicate to adjust.
For the reversing valve it is much simpler the mine the pilot valve is incorporated into the main compact valve.
The return of water in the earth when it is hot it is not limestone but a kind of green algae which makes sticky water in the long run and this clogs the fine grating on the point buried at of water table.
as in summer the amount of water returned to the tablecloth is negligible, it is better to send it down the drain, I am not sure that returning hot water to the earth is good water from the earth must stay cold
it keeps the bacteria asleep and it remains in its natural state, l, winter I return water sometimes to 4c in large quantities it does not disturb the tablecloth but the hot water I am not sure that it is good, Anyway, the quantity that there is is immense, the St. Lawrence River is not very far and there is no shortage of broth.
For the programmable automaton it is Allen Bradley, it is not yet installed I am currently working with power relays and for the control of solid state timed or other relays and lots of fillage it is all security and timer, protection, detection if the exchanger does not freeze ect ,,
excessive or too low pressure of freon, that makes a factory and I am the only one to rummage inside, the problem if I am absent who will repair such an assembly not traditional? This is the problem with all these handyman constructions, it dies with the builder. Except for the wood stove it is simple.
This assembly is resever to the experienced handyman, but it is very effective.
Andre
0 x
André, all of them,
Weird things are happening.
In France, it is forbidden to return water to the water table. It is therefore necessary to take from a source, and throw into the sewer (river, gutter, ...). Very few sources provide sufficient flow then to run the system, which makes the system impractical (in France).
And the use of freon, or any other chlorofluoro-carbon (CFCs) is prohibited on the whole planet, because it is this gas which creates the holes in the ozone layer.
So, sunbathing with intensive UVs to have a cheap air conditioning, it may be economical, but not ecological.
Valorous
Weird things are happening.
In France, it is forbidden to return water to the water table. It is therefore necessary to take from a source, and throw into the sewer (river, gutter, ...). Very few sources provide sufficient flow then to run the system, which makes the system impractical (in France).
And the use of freon, or any other chlorofluoro-carbon (CFCs) is prohibited on the whole planet, because it is this gas which creates the holes in the ozone layer.
So, sunbathing with intensive UVs to have a cheap air conditioning, it may be economical, but not ecological.
Valorous
0 x
hello, answer to koen
I do not know what works with your refrigerator or air conditioning, I know that there is butane or another gas, but here freon 12 is prohibited but on 22 and still on sale, the legislation is that the systems old as long as it works with their gas they are not automatically doomed, when they are broken we will replace them with new products (may be more ecological and in 20 years it will be otherwise ...
One thing I know, your ministers in their tinted glass Limousines, they all have air conditioning, and I don't think it works in water.
Most department stores have air conditioning, and often hospitals do not. Stop considering luxury air conditioning.
Regarding the rules here I did not even check the relevance of my installation, I used common sense, logic
1 I pump water from the earth and especially in winter for heating, I absorb its heat, so I then refriodi the simplest solution for me it would have been to send it down the drain with complete legitimacy , but my logic tells me why saturate the city's treatment basin with clean water (it circulated in copper pipes and the pump), the other simple solution is to send it to the fields in the back on the surface, easy for a country like at home, but here in winter the earth freezes a meter of hollow, so return of the water under this layer out of the frost, and in my reason despite the huge amount of water available I prefer to return it from where it comes from. the solution I chose was not the ease. In summer it is hot water 38 to 40c that comes out of the exchanger
I return it to the sewer, but in air conditioning it is a very small amount of water.
I hope you understand the bizard thing ...
When has an air conditioning, is first a heater and as that does both why not use it. The cheap terms! it sells commercially ready-made, the size of my machine a 5Hp compressor it sells for around $ 12000 (name in America 5 ton).
Regarding the hole in the ozone layer and know that where I live. not very far from the great north we are the first to taste it, and in addition, I only consider Quebec (without taking the figures for all of Canada, we are in the peloton at the head of the list for what is on the environmental side). Obviously it's easy, we are sparsely populated and our territory and mostly forest.
But my opinion on air conditioning, For many people who are elderly or vulnerable to heat that we know now, this improves their quality of life, and it decreases the number of deaths.
It is better to put vulnerable people in air conditioning during periods of hot weather than to freeze them after their death.
Andre
I do not know what works with your refrigerator or air conditioning, I know that there is butane or another gas, but here freon 12 is prohibited but on 22 and still on sale, the legislation is that the systems old as long as it works with their gas they are not automatically doomed, when they are broken we will replace them with new products (may be more ecological and in 20 years it will be otherwise ...
One thing I know, your ministers in their tinted glass Limousines, they all have air conditioning, and I don't think it works in water.
Most department stores have air conditioning, and often hospitals do not. Stop considering luxury air conditioning.
Regarding the rules here I did not even check the relevance of my installation, I used common sense, logic
1 I pump water from the earth and especially in winter for heating, I absorb its heat, so I then refriodi the simplest solution for me it would have been to send it down the drain with complete legitimacy , but my logic tells me why saturate the city's treatment basin with clean water (it circulated in copper pipes and the pump), the other simple solution is to send it to the fields in the back on the surface, easy for a country like at home, but here in winter the earth freezes a meter of hollow, so return of the water under this layer out of the frost, and in my reason despite the huge amount of water available I prefer to return it from where it comes from. the solution I chose was not the ease. In summer it is hot water 38 to 40c that comes out of the exchanger
I return it to the sewer, but in air conditioning it is a very small amount of water.
I hope you understand the bizard thing ...
When has an air conditioning, is first a heater and as that does both why not use it. The cheap terms! it sells commercially ready-made, the size of my machine a 5Hp compressor it sells for around $ 12000 (name in America 5 ton).
Regarding the hole in the ozone layer and know that where I live. not very far from the great north we are the first to taste it, and in addition, I only consider Quebec (without taking the figures for all of Canada, we are in the peloton at the head of the list for what is on the environmental side). Obviously it's easy, we are sparsely populated and our territory and mostly forest.
But my opinion on air conditioning, For many people who are elderly or vulnerable to heat that we know now, this improves their quality of life, and it decreases the number of deaths.
It is better to put vulnerable people in air conditioning during periods of hot weather than to freeze them after their death.
Andre
0 x
Hello
I fully agree with André
As a refrigeration technician in France, I confirm the current use of R22 HCFC and the sale of this refrigerant. Let us call this gas thus since it is true that the simplified designation of freon calls upon a mark which formerly produced CFCs. It is necessary to differentiate the sale of this refrigerant and the sale of refrigeration installation containing this fluid. Indeed R22 in a new installation is no longer in anticipation of future bans, but the law does not prohibit the sale of this product for existing installation refills and those I believe until 2020. In an exchanger with the earth, in the case of geothermal energy, only salty water circulates in a closed circuit.
A heat pump bought today will certainly contain R134a, R410, R407c ... in short, HFCs. Isobutane R600 is used in household refrigerators. So nothing to do with the cheap purchase price or the use in economic geothermal energy. The discharge of water into the water table is certainly prohibited for wastewater, but the water from an exchanger ... In addition, if spreading as André quotes, the earth filters the water ... Ca seems to me very little risk for the tablecloth ... Now that says the law, I don't know ..
However I do not approve of the release of fluids into the atmosphere, CFCs destroyed the ozone layer but HFCs increase the greenhouse effect.
So what do you prefer? neither of you.
I fully agree with André
As a refrigeration technician in France, I confirm the current use of R22 HCFC and the sale of this refrigerant. Let us call this gas thus since it is true that the simplified designation of freon calls upon a mark which formerly produced CFCs. It is necessary to differentiate the sale of this refrigerant and the sale of refrigeration installation containing this fluid. Indeed R22 in a new installation is no longer in anticipation of future bans, but the law does not prohibit the sale of this product for existing installation refills and those I believe until 2020. In an exchanger with the earth, in the case of geothermal energy, only salty water circulates in a closed circuit.
A heat pump bought today will certainly contain R134a, R410, R407c ... in short, HFCs. Isobutane R600 is used in household refrigerators. So nothing to do with the cheap purchase price or the use in economic geothermal energy. The discharge of water into the water table is certainly prohibited for wastewater, but the water from an exchanger ... In addition, if spreading as André quotes, the earth filters the water ... Ca seems to me very little risk for the tablecloth ... Now that says the law, I don't know ..
However I do not approve of the release of fluids into the atmosphere, CFCs destroyed the ozone layer but HFCs increase the greenhouse effect.
So what do you prefer? neither of you.
0 x
-
- Similar topics
- Replies
- views
- Last message
-
- 44 Replies
- 19698 views
-
Last message by Alain G
View the latest post
17/06/11, 15:41A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
-
- 5 Replies
- 4686 views
-
Last message by chatelot16
View the latest post
11/08/10, 19:30A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
-
- 7 Replies
- 4064 views
-
Last message by futuranat
View the latest post
26/06/09, 13:24A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
-
- 7 Replies
- 9780 views
-
Last message by chatelot16
View the latest post
21/11/10, 17:00A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
-
- 8 Replies
- 6614 views
-
Last message by manu44
View the latest post
24/12/08, 23:07A subject posted in the forum : Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ...
Back to "Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ..."
Who is online ?
Users browsing this forum : Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 339 guests