Sciences et Avenir: article on the Pantone Gillier

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by Christophe » 02/05/08, 13:00

Thank you the morale goes up (a little).

For the thesis, here it is for download: https://www.econologie.com/these-de-doct ... -3392.html
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by Remundo » 03/05/08, 10:37

I took a look (too fast ...) on this very comprehensive and interesting thesis.

We can clearly see the advantages of water injection in terms of depollution.

The big highlight of this thesis is the access to an engine test bench and the many comparative and varied measurements.

On the other hand, at first reading, there is no evidence that the injection of water improves the combustion efficiency. We see in particular the effective average pressure (PME) are lower with aquazole.

The question should be explored by knowing the proportion of water in the aquazole and compare the drop in PME diesel / aquazole with the drop in calorific value between these 2 fuels : Idea:

If the priority objective is the depollution of gases, the advantage seems to turn in favor of water injection ...

Finally, as I say, I haven't read everything thoroughly :|
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by Former Oceano » 05/05/08, 20:40

Pages 228 to 230 we talk about radical reactions with water.

This is the theory I put forward a few years ago. Indeed the Gillier Pantone does not work any more when one moves too far away the reactor from the combustion chamber, which let me think that "elements (not to be taken in the nuclear meaning but logical)" with short lifespan were in game-strong index for radical reactions. In addition, at temperatures compatible with the operation of the reactor.

Karine had the means to do the analyzes and go further.

In the case of the combustion of a water / diesel emulsion, we will find in addition to oxygen
from air, oxygen and OH radicals, from the dissociation of water in the
combustion chamber [6]. To establish the different reaction constants, we
Chapter 6 - Discussion of the PAH and particle formation phenomena
-223-
will place in the conditions called perfect gases, that is to say by taking as an assumption
that the enthalpy change is independent of pressure changes (ideal gas law)
Equation 1: H2O OH + ½ H2ΔH = 280,813 kJ / mol at 298,15 K
HO
KOHH
2
1/2
1 2
Ρ
= Ρ Ρ with P the partial pressure of each species,
K1 = 1,66.10-4 at 2000 K [7]
K1 = 0,054 to 3000 K [7]
In addition, water can also dissociate and produce O2 depending on the reaction:
Equation 2: H2O ½ O2 + H2 ΔH = 241,826 kJ / mol at 298,15 K
HO
KHO
2
1/2
2 2 2
Ρ
= Ρ Ρ
K2 = 2,89.10-4 at 2000 K [7]
K2 = 0,045 to 3000 K [7]
Finally, OH can also be formed by simple reaction between O2 and H2:
Equation 3: O2 + ½ H2 2 OH
K3 = 0,574 to 2000 K [7]
K3 = 1,2 to 3000 K [7]
Both Figure VI-1 and Figure VI-2 show that the decomposition reaction of water with
OH formation is slow for low temperatures. But even if the emulsion produces
a small amount of OH radicals, this radical will very quickly initiate the oxidation of
the hydrocarbon (Reaction 5), whatever the temperature (speed constant k = 108
cm3.mol-1.s-1 for T> 300 K) unlike the initiation step by O2 on a hydrocarbon
which requires an energy of 200 kJ / mol with a speed constant k = 10 cm3.mol-1.s-1 to
800 K.
Chapter 6 - Discussion of the PAH and particle formation phenomena
-224-
In addition, these two reactions have a lower activation energy compared to the reactions
initiation by loss of hydrogen or decomposition of the hydrocarbon which occurs
conventionally at high temperature (Reaction 1, Reaction 2 and Reaction 3).
Finally, these OH radicals. can participate in the post-oxidation of the soot formed
previously in the cylinder [8, 9] according to the reaction Csuie + OH. → CO + Cn-1 + H. [10]
In the case of the emulsion, the OH radicals. are therefore present from the start of combustion
whereas, in the case of diesel, they intervene after their prior training by
dissociation of ROOH or after reaction with oxygen or dihydrogen:
H. + O2 → OH + O. A = 2,2.1014 cm3.mol-1.cm-1 E = 70 kJ / mol
O. + H2 → OH + H. A = 1,8.1010 cm3.mol-1.cm-1 E = 37 kJ / mol


Radical reactions allow both to reduce the size of the fuel molecules into species that are easier to oxidize, to initiate combustion.

After this hard work to say that the Gillier Pantone is blank!
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by Remundo » 05/05/08, 22:50

Good evening Ex-Oceano,

The shift to combustion speeds is indeed interesting.

It is not new that there are radical chain mechanisms during combustion.

On the other hand, thinking about how the Gillier system favors these reactions seems relevant to me.

Your approach to the action of HO * radicals generated by the Gillier / Pantone raises a good lead. Indeed, I read p218
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It is well known that HO *, like all radicals, has a very strong reactivity to break carbon chains.

The question is therefore whether the Gillier Pantone has the potential to pre-generate radicals which will accelerate combustion and therefore improve its performance :?: When you know that exhaust fumes can come out at 500 ° C, I think it's likely.

And anyway, it is almost certain that at the end of compression, part of the water has radicalized in H * + HO *, especially on Diesel (high compression ratio ...)

The other beneficial effect of the Gillier system is that it recovers part of the heat from the exhaust gases to re-inject it before compression ... it is a form of combined cycle, in the sense that the heat rejected by a thermodynamic cycle is recovered to produce a small amount of mechanical work via a 2nd thermodynamic cycle, except that there, everything happens in the same machine.

I personally have the intuition that the injection of very little of water before combustion can generate fuel savings by 2 effects:
- heat recovery in the exhaust
- promoting combustion by modifying the equilibrium factors (temperature and pressure), and above all by chemical action, perhaps radical as you suggest, Ex Oceano ...

I also think that several manufacturers have their idea and even their precise measurements on this phenomenon. And it doesn't have to be that bad, otherwise, why would they file expensive international patents on injecting water through the intake manifold? : Idea: :?:

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by Woodcutter » 06/05/08, 01:51

Interesting topic ... : Wink:

I see that it is evolving but the faithful are still there: hello people! Image
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by renaud67 » 06/05/08, 10:16

Welcome back Lumberjack !!
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by lio74 » 09/05/08, 11:25

Remundo wrote:Hi Lio74,

It's a shame that no manufacturer wants to look officially on the subject.

.............

In a time of energy savings, it would not be bad business strategy to take an objective position on the subject WITH scientific measures in support ...


Hello,

haaa lala ... and yes, it's unfortunate, because even I, who today having 5 montages to achieve, I'm not completely convinced ... (but persuade that there is something to do!)
it works, but it's too random, it's the mechanic's good feelling, and presto you get results between 10 ~ 15 and 50%. Even Hypnow, who have released "standard" products have an engine compatibility sheet filled in ... and there with their new retrokit, they had good results on electro groups (in the 50%) and 5 ~ 10% for the 508 ... (see the subject: 508 steam doping with a retrokit: NO RESULTS)

the only tests performed are cut, either by time or by the budget of those who launch ...
maybe in 5 years, by force, the echo-motor association will have done a good battery of tests?!?
In the meantime, we continue to suffocate slowly :?

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by Remundo » 09/05/08, 12:23

And yes...

A few years ago, I was super skeptical about water doping, without denigrating it.

I am now a little half fig and half grape ... :?

By trusting a priori honest experimenters, like the Econologists, we see that sometimes, we gain a few%, even tens of%.

Which makes me say that there is a very small window for optimizing combustion by re-injecting the water heated by the exhaust gases. And it's about finding it : Idea:

My deep conviction is that if there is a decrease in consumption, only 2 points can go in this direction,
- reinjection of heat recovered from the exhaust
- improvement of combustion by the presence of water mist, or of its "cracked" compounds such as H +, HO-, and radicals ... H * OH *

I was talking about it this morning on Echo Motor²

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by Capt_Maloche » 18/06/08, 10:59

Remundo wrote:And yes...
Which makes me say that there is a very small window for optimizing combustion by re-injecting the water heated by the exhaust gases. And it's about finding it : Idea:

My deep conviction is that if there is a decrease in consumption, only 2 points can go in this direction,
- reinjection of heat recovered from the exhaust
- improvement of combustion by the presence of water mist, or of its "cracked" compounds such as H +, HO-, and radicals ... H * OH *

@+


You progress Rémundo :D

I am more than convinced of the "depollution" since my measurements on the oil burner, and I know that the savings in consumption are limited to improving combustion and recovering energy from the exhaust, but 10/15 % are always good to take

I would read the thesis later ... in the middle of Taff

and besides, what is the best way to generate a vapor filled with OH ions?

PS: hi Bucheron!
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by Remundo » 18/06/08, 11:49

Thank you Captain!

To break an OH bond, there is only one way: heat and / or catalysis.

A whole program : Idea:
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