C-Cactus: economic Hdi hybrid Citroen

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
Leo Maximus
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by Leo Maximus » 19/11/08, 12:37

C moa wrote:... Even toyota with all its technological advance does not manage to do better in terms of consumption and releases than the best diesels ....

It is simply a false problem. The Prius was originally designed for the Japanese market where cars are petrol (CNG or LPG for taxis) not diesel. The main part of Toyota's sales in France is diesel because this fuel is zero-rated. If diesel were taxed like gasoline it would lose much of its interest.
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by C moa » 19/11/08, 14:33

Leo Maximus wrote:
C moa wrote:... Even toyota with all its technological advance does not manage to do better in terms of consumption and releases than the best diesels ....

It is simply a false problem. The Prius was originally designed for the Japanese market where cars are petrol (CNG or LPG for taxis) not diesel. The main part of Toyota's sales in France is diesel because this fuel is zero-rated. If diesel were taxed like gasoline it would lose much of its interest.
Certainly the origin of the manufacturer is important and it is not by chance that the best dieselists are European (French and German in particular).

However the debate revolved around "why do an improved start and stop when the hybrid does not seem so complicated to develop". My remark did not simply want to remind that there must be technological hard points because Toyota, which seems to be ahead of everyone, does not manage to make a vehicle that is really less greedy and therefore less polluting than its comrades with others. technological choices.

I repeat, I am convinced that the future of transport in general and of the car in particular goes through the hybrid (probably series) but for it to be really an alternative, consumption will really have to be low (- 1l / 100 km for me for a mid-range car).
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by Bougonnator » 19/11/08, 15:35

The best diesel generators are European because it is in Europe that fuel oil is less taxed and therefore more bought. It is only an economic opportunity, nothing more.
If Toyota cannot do better, it is because it is not economically profitable for them. They prefer to capitalize on the existing production chain if that is enough and reap profits for the shareholders. It is a car manufacturer, not a humanitarian organization. Do not confuse.
When the market demands it, they will certainly do better, but especially not before, not too soon.
For those who have never noticed: the Prius is not a small car of category A like a Smart, a 107, etc ...
Let's compare what is: the Prius is as livable as a 407. It is not a small car, but an average car.
It is sure that an office chair on wheels with a diesel in model design should consume less.
Finally, the consumption figures are given on a typical journey but which only partially reflects the data of real life. A Prius consumes a lot on the highway compared to another diesel sedan, but will consume a lot less on a congested trip and on short trips.
I have a Prius, and unfortunately the ideal case of the highway at constant speed concerns only the rare holidays, which is far from being the main use of the vehicle.
But I prefer by far a Prius which has been driving for almost 3 years than a concept car forgotten in a hangar, even if it only consumes 1 deci-liter per thousand km on paper (but that no one has seen roll).
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by Remundo » 19/11/08, 16:51

Hello everyone, hi Lumberjack,
Woodcutter wrote:If you were a little older on this forum, you would know that I defend the hybrid series for a long time ... It was worth to me some exacerbated reactions of people (I do not know who anymore?) retorting me that the output could not be good ... I even saw (I must have kept it somewhere) a presentation by an engineer (mechanical graduate? 8) ) showing that it could not work because of a not good performance!

Anyway, I believed in it for a long time ...

You're a fan of the electric hybrid, well we agree. I never implied that you were against elsewhere : Cheesy:



Exaggeration, no matter where it comes from, is never a good advisor ...

10% loss at each gear by counting 6 gears in a row (is that what you're saying?) That gives us 53% of power transmitted between the crankshaft and the wheels ... : roll: Are you kidding yourself? What is your mechanical engineering degree? : Lol:

You will find out, my beloved Bois man, a gear that has 5% loss, it's already very good ... With a little wear and splash in the oil, it turns around 92%

And the returns are not added as you say and as I never wrote, but they multiply ...
with 6 power crossings from one gear to another, the efficiency is only 0.92 ^ 6 = 56%

A pure electric transmission easily makes more than 90%, almost 2 times more ...

Concerning point 4, I suppose that you should not have followed the last evolutions of the turbocharged engines with direct injection whose torque curves are flat (clipped by the regulation) between 1600-1800 rpm and 5000 rpm. ..

Do you think I don't know about this? Otherwise, do not confuse optimized torque and optimal performance : Idea:
But I agree with you that electric traction is perfectly suited to the mobility of private vehicles.

Well here :P
Absolute leader, hi, hi, hi! : Lol: They were alone ...
Hats off to the pioneers of this great house who had the courage to carry their project to the end, they did not have to make friends. :?

Absolutely, they were the only ones and you caught my rush of humor : Cheesy:
It would never occur to you that maybe, eventually, we never know each other (sometimes if someone other than you is right ...) there might not be only that as reasons, but also a pinch of technical difficulties / economic positioning of the products which would make it not so easy to sell them?

The hybrid poses neither major technical difficulty nor sales difficulty (quite the contrary ...); except perhaps in Zimbabwe or Greenland. In all the OECD countries, they would make a commercial box like a long time one did not see it and would give many jobs.

On this point, don't bother cutting your hair in 4 :D
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by Leo Maximus » 19/11/08, 17:40

C moa wrote:
Leo Maximus wrote:
C moa wrote:... Even toyota with all its technological advance does not manage to do better in terms of consumption and releases than the best diesels ....

It is simply a false problem. The Prius was originally designed for the Japanese market where cars are petrol (CNG or LPG for taxis) not diesel. The main part of Toyota's sales in France is diesel because this fuel is zero-rated. If diesel were taxed like gasoline it would lose much of its interest.
Certainly the origin of the manufacturer is important and it is not by chance that the best dieselists are European (French and German in particular).

However the debate revolved around "why do an improved start and stop when the hybrid does not seem so complicated to develop". My remark did not simply want to remind that there must be technological hard points because Toyota, which seems to be ahead of everyone, does not manage to make a vehicle that is really less greedy and therefore less polluting than its comrades with others. technological choices.

I repeat, I am convinced that the future of transport in general and of the car in particular goes through the hybrid (probably series) but for it to be really an alternative, consumption will really have to be low (- 1l / 100 km for me for a mid-range car).

What is an improved "Start & Stop"? A "Start & Stop" disconnectable so that the air conditioning works when the thermal is off? : Lol:

Toyota would surely do better if it increased its% of turnover in R & D: 3,9% only, to bring it up to the level of Renault: 6,2% of turnover in R & D (Les Echos).

For pollution, it should be noted that a Prius releases 20 or 30 times less NOx than an equivalent HDi. And, knowing that in France 70% of the mileage is in the city (INSEE), consumption in the city should be compared.
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by Leo Maximus » 19/11/08, 21:37

In France, 70% of the mileage is driven in the city. Here is the consumption per 100 km in the city given by Le Moniteur Automobile for the Toyota Prius II and the Peugeot 407 HDi 2.0:

Prius II: 5 liters of SP95
407 HDi 2.0: 7,7 liters of diesel i.e. 54% Moreover.

But the Prius as the 407 HDi have internal combustion engines and some say that the comparison is only valid if we compare in kilocalories:

Prius II: 2,7 kg of SP95 or 28080 kcal per 100 km in the city
407 HDi: 6,43 kg of diesel or 78155 kcal per 100 km in the city or 2,58 times more energy than the Prius for the same mileage.
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by C moa » 19/11/08, 22:44

Leo Maximus wrote:In France, 70% of the mileage is driven in the city. Here is the consumption per 100 km in the city given by Le Moniteur Automobile for the Toyota Prius II and the Peugeot 407 HDi 2.0:

Prius II: 5 liters of SP95
407 HDi 2.0: 7,7 liters of diesel i.e. 54% Moreover.

But the Prius as the 407 HDi have internal combustion engines and some say that the comparison is only valid if we compare in kilocalories:

Prius II: 2,7 kg of SP95 or 28080 kcal per 100 km in the city
407 HDi: 6,43 kg of diesel or 78155 kcal per 100 km in the city or 2,58 times more energy than the Prius for the same mileage.
This is typically what happens when you don't want to face it, you compare what is not comparable.

First of all why compare two vehicles which do not have the same power and not the same gauge ?? One makes an equivalent 110 hp and the other 140 it is on that the second part loses ahead. I read a comparison one day with a 150hp laguna, there too, confined to the city center and of course it lost.

Then to say that 70% of journeys are made in town it is a little normal considering that 80% of the French live in town. What the study does not say is that making trips to the city does not mean driving constantly at 30 an hour. We don't just do downtown and traffic jams. In the city, this means above all in built-up areas and there are 4 routes, peripherals .... It is no coincidence that the performance calculation is done on mixed cycles !!! But there indeed, many are not interested because all the comparisons have shown that the prius lost against an HDI / DCI.

Personally I am a real city dweller and my 307 SW 1.6 HDI 110 cv (a little bigger than the prius therefore) is used almost only for making the city and it has been 5.8l for a long time .... I specify that I have no pantone, that I do not make any particular mixture and that with the plugs that we have, our driving is surely not the most economical either ....

FYI, two days ago I took a taxi equipped with a prius precisely. Full downtown Milan direction the periphery with a little highway. First time I get into this car and great surprise the car is absolutely not silent !!! Certainly at the lights we do not hear but I still have the feeling that the hybrid is not too much in demand !!! I do not know, of course, how much the driver consumes but I have some doubts about the 5litre / 100 indicated.

I repeat, for me a hybrid will be really efficient when it will be less than 1 liter per 100 km in the combined cycle of course (already if it passed the bar of - 3 liters it would not be bad).
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by Christophe » 19/11/08, 23:18

+1 with c moa! 407 and Prius, they are not the same template of vehicles !!

Turbo M6 had compared some time ago the Laguna dci and the Prius = "identical" consumption ...

It is not very rigorous as test / test but it is to see in video here: https://www.econologie.com/comparatif-to ... -2944.html

But the Prius is closer to the Megane than the Laguna, right?
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by Leo Maximus » 20/11/08, 09:54

Christophe wrote:+1 with c moa! 407 and Prius, they are not the same template of vehicles !!

Turbo M6 had compared some time ago the Laguna dci and the Prius = "identical" consumption ...

It is not very rigorous as test / test but it is to see in video here: https://www.econologie.com/comparatif-to ... -2944.html

But the Prius is closer to the Megane than the Laguna, right?

The difference in sizes is relatively small: 1325 kg for the Prius and 1505 kg for the 407, length 4,45 m for the Prius and 4,67 m for the 407.

The interest of diesel in France is an advantageous tax system, excluding taxes it is more expensive than petrol and it is in countries where diesel is more expensive than petrol that hybrid cars sell the best : http://www.linternaute.com/auto/magazin ... axes.shtml

Toyota sold 450000 hybrids in 2007 progressing 37% on 2006. There is a Dutch site, run by a Prius fan, which is regularly updated: http://www.john2211.nl/Hybride_verkoop.htm

The Prius was designed for the Japanese market and Toyota has not made much effort to adapt it to the European market. It may come with future versions. There are forums of Japanese Priussians, in town consumption is around 4 liters to 4,5 liters per 100 km: http://www.priuslife.com/ (site in Japanese)

For the 1 liters per 100 km it is quite feasible but in the Citroën commercial on TV only! : Lol:
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by C moa » 20/11/08, 10:14

Leo Maximus wrote:The difference in sizes is relatively small: 1325 kg for the Prius and 1505 kg for the 407, length 4,45 m for the Prius and 4,67 m for the 407.
Well if for you 200 kg + 30 hp difference is not a problem, maybe we should do a test between the prius and the smart ... : roll:
Toyota sold 450000 hybrids in 2007 progressing 37% on 2006. There is a Dutch site, run by a Prius fan, which is regularly updated: http://www.john2211.nl/Hybride_verkoop.htm
That Toyota sells its cars, so much the better !!! This will give ideas to others and that is how we will have more efficient vehicles.
There are forums Japanese priussians in town consumption is around 4 liters to 4,5 liters per 100 km : http://www.priuslife.com/ (site in Japanese)

For the 1 liters per 100 km it is quite feasible but in the Citroën commercial on TV only! : Lol:
So much the better for our Japanese friends but for me making hybrids that even make 4 liters is like making EVs with 80 km of autonomy. The economic interest is very limited !!!
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