C-Cactus: economic Hdi hybrid Citroen
Because you think it's so complicated to connect a motor to a generator and batteries, and then use the batteries with a motor?
What is pompously called a series hybrid is a grossomodo generator, to which an electric motor is connected.
Sometimes, we even use a single electric machine, sometimes a motor (battery discharge), sometimes a generator (battery recharge), but it's a little more complicated (choice of the Honda IMA) for power electronics.
The series hybrid is also called a Diesel-electric locomotive that would have a battery pack ...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive ... 9lectrique
Just that there is no battery on the loco, but it would not be complicated to put ...
I can't resist showing you the old raft at Clermont Ferrand station
VOILA the avant-garde technology on which the manufacturers reflect ardently for another 10 years so it is complicated
The basic series hybrid with a Li-Ion battery pack, it is infinitely simpler than the least ABS, ESP or air bag management with accelerometer, servos in all directions between different systems packed with electronics that do not do not always coexist well ...
To promote the alternator-starter is to amuse the gallery ...
0 x
- Woodcutter
- Econologue expert
- posts: 4731
- Registration: 07/11/05, 10:45
- Location: Mountain ... (Trièves)
- x 2
Ah well, you're also an engineer with a large manufacturer in addition to being a physics teacher and inventor?
Sometimes a little humility would do you good ...
Do you sincerely think that the constraints of using a diesel-electric locomotive and a motor vehicle are the same?
Sometimes a little humility would do you good ...
Do you sincerely think that the constraints of using a diesel-electric locomotive and a motor vehicle are the same?
I tend to think that it is much more simply economic realism that can be effective in an area that interests us (me?): The fight against GHG emissions in transport, quickly!Remundo wrote:[...]To promote the alternator-starter is to amuse the gallery ...
0 x
"I am a big brute, but I rarely mistaken ..."
Remundo I want everything you want, I too work on 4 quadrans machines so in theory it's not complicated but there are still people who have been working on these subjects for a while and if today it is not at the point it can be that there is a reason other than the bad will (they are certainly less intelligent than us but nevertheless ... ).
Certainly Renault does not believe in the Hybrid, certainly PSA believes in it but has only recently started to do so and will therefore take a few years to have a really efficient product, but what about Toyota or Serge Daussault?
As you said, Toyota has been working on this principle for 20 years and will enter its third generation of hybrid car. With what result ?? A car that consumes year after year as much as a good HDI / DCI.
Serge Dassault has invested heavily over the past 10 years to develop a series hybrid (at the request of Renault) and it works, but what are the concrete results too? 600 km for 20l of gasoline (see additional survey) or 3l to 100 km on Kangoo (probably empty). These results are also within the reach of any constructor / engine manufacturer as long as it lightens the body a little and does not add a whole bunch of accessories that consume a lot (air conditioning, roof racks ...).
In 2000, a colleague from the ENSPM told me that the engines had doubled in power by halving their consumption (so we stayed at the same point almost) in less than 10 years. 8 years later, consumption has decreased further but the vehicles have therefore grown again status quo. In summary, if we took a current engine and mounted it on a R25 or R21 body, we would probably be around 3 liters.
So of two things, one is the engineers and other technicians who have carried out this work for 20 years are incapable and they have to be fired all, or there are real technical barriers (which I probably do not know) which block the arrival of really efficient hybrids (For me really efficient it means consuming between 0.5 and 1l per 100km).
So while waiting for these hybrids to become really effective, everything is good to take especially when it is simple and easy to generalize.
Certainly Renault does not believe in the Hybrid, certainly PSA believes in it but has only recently started to do so and will therefore take a few years to have a really efficient product, but what about Toyota or Serge Daussault?
As you said, Toyota has been working on this principle for 20 years and will enter its third generation of hybrid car. With what result ?? A car that consumes year after year as much as a good HDI / DCI.
Serge Dassault has invested heavily over the past 10 years to develop a series hybrid (at the request of Renault) and it works, but what are the concrete results too? 600 km for 20l of gasoline (see additional survey) or 3l to 100 km on Kangoo (probably empty). These results are also within the reach of any constructor / engine manufacturer as long as it lightens the body a little and does not add a whole bunch of accessories that consume a lot (air conditioning, roof racks ...).
In 2000, a colleague from the ENSPM told me that the engines had doubled in power by halving their consumption (so we stayed at the same point almost) in less than 10 years. 8 years later, consumption has decreased further but the vehicles have therefore grown again status quo. In summary, if we took a current engine and mounted it on a R25 or R21 body, we would probably be around 3 liters.
So of two things, one is the engineers and other technicians who have carried out this work for 20 years are incapable and they have to be fired all, or there are real technical barriers (which I probably do not know) which block the arrival of really efficient hybrids (For me really efficient it means consuming between 0.5 and 1l per 100km).
So while waiting for these hybrids to become really effective, everything is good to take especially when it is simple and easy to generalize.
0 x
Haaaa ... I created the debate
Well, Lumberjack, I'm not just a physics and chemistry teacher and inventor ... Basically, I was neither ... I was and still am a graduate engineer in "advanced mechanics ".
Enough bragging, though it did me so much good
Of course an SNCF power train and a car are different. But not in principle. Hybrid-series technology for a car is not at all problematic. By caricaturing thoroughly, take a generator of 4000 W at Casto and put it in the trunk for an electric 106 ... It's already 80% of the road traveled
C Moa, you're right, I am not saying that the manufacturers do nothing. Electronic assistance systems have developed considerably, as have the efficiency of the motors and their power. Passive safety too ...
In fact, the best architecture that can be considered for a car is the series hybrid. Here are the advantages:
1. The engine is only started to recharge the batteries and turns on a thermodynamic optimum preset.
2. In town, no consumption on batteries or noise elsewhere
3. Very high efficiency of electro-electric conversions (> 85%) compared to a gearbox (loss of 5 to 10% with each gear crossed: mini 4 or 5 in the gearbox + mini 2 in the axle)
4. The electric traction is much more suitable for a car than a combustion engine because it has a large torque at low speed and a lower torque at high speed (the engine is the opposite, and that's why you have to play the gearbox ...)
5. With batteries and / or supercaps, you can do the recovery of kinetic energy during braking.
With all that, you would easily make 2-3 L / 100 for an average sedan. "We" know how to do it perfectly since the 2000s and it is Renault in France which was the absolute leader with the Elect'road. Since then some challengers have been defending themselves well: Dassault SVE with Cleanova, soon Chevrolet with the Volt.
Since then, progress in batteries legitimizes even more to embark on this path.
The Prius would do the job without problem if Toyota made them RECHARGEABLE and put a little more than 4 batteries that give soul in 5 min to 40 an hour ... To reproach Prius their consumption is to reproach a ferrari for not not go fast enough because it would miss a wheel.
In reality, this is what is happening ...
In the world of transport, the balance is governed by 3 lobbies;
- the statist lobby which intervenes through the taxation of fuels: it has no interest in reducing consumption, and even less in losing track of the energy of transport, that is to say what would happen if everyone loaded at home quietly on EDF.
- The oil lobby: No need to draw it for you...
- The builders' lobby: no interest for them to incur costs to make a hybrid-series car when the other 2 lobbies brake 4 irons ... On the other hand, you have to make an image and say that we are fully into ecology: enormous effort in the alternator starter, the supreme future of powertrains, obviously. Finally, I saw even more con ... 1m² of PV cell on the roof: enough to operate the radio 10 min
Still, a manufacturer, above all, it sells cars ... There are only two ways currently for their salvation:
- Low-cost
- The hybrid preferably rechargeable
you chose the first ... The models reuse the platforms of the old ones, the GMPs evolve little; we modify the bodywork and move the factories to Eastern Europe
The crisis in the automobile market, even more so in France, would not take place if hybrids worthy of the name were ready to be put on the market.
My last sentence is beautiful and has indeed become a utopia because of the denial of the right technological choice and good economic sense.
Here are all the friends ...
Well, Lumberjack, I'm not just a physics and chemistry teacher and inventor ... Basically, I was neither ... I was and still am a graduate engineer in "advanced mechanics ".
Enough bragging, though it did me so much good
Of course an SNCF power train and a car are different. But not in principle. Hybrid-series technology for a car is not at all problematic. By caricaturing thoroughly, take a generator of 4000 W at Casto and put it in the trunk for an electric 106 ... It's already 80% of the road traveled
C Moa, you're right, I am not saying that the manufacturers do nothing. Electronic assistance systems have developed considerably, as have the efficiency of the motors and their power. Passive safety too ...
In fact, the best architecture that can be considered for a car is the series hybrid. Here are the advantages:
1. The engine is only started to recharge the batteries and turns on a thermodynamic optimum preset.
2. In town, no consumption on batteries or noise elsewhere
3. Very high efficiency of electro-electric conversions (> 85%) compared to a gearbox (loss of 5 to 10% with each gear crossed: mini 4 or 5 in the gearbox + mini 2 in the axle)
4. The electric traction is much more suitable for a car than a combustion engine because it has a large torque at low speed and a lower torque at high speed (the engine is the opposite, and that's why you have to play the gearbox ...)
5. With batteries and / or supercaps, you can do the recovery of kinetic energy during braking.
With all that, you would easily make 2-3 L / 100 for an average sedan. "We" know how to do it perfectly since the 2000s and it is Renault in France which was the absolute leader with the Elect'road. Since then some challengers have been defending themselves well: Dassault SVE with Cleanova, soon Chevrolet with the Volt.
Since then, progress in batteries legitimizes even more to embark on this path.
The Prius would do the job without problem if Toyota made them RECHARGEABLE and put a little more than 4 batteries that give soul in 5 min to 40 an hour ... To reproach Prius their consumption is to reproach a ferrari for not not go fast enough because it would miss a wheel.
In reality, this is what is happening ...
In the world of transport, the balance is governed by 3 lobbies;
- the statist lobby which intervenes through the taxation of fuels: it has no interest in reducing consumption, and even less in losing track of the energy of transport, that is to say what would happen if everyone loaded at home quietly on EDF.
- The oil lobby: No need to draw it for you...
- The builders' lobby: no interest for them to incur costs to make a hybrid-series car when the other 2 lobbies brake 4 irons ... On the other hand, you have to make an image and say that we are fully into ecology: enormous effort in the alternator starter, the supreme future of powertrains, obviously. Finally, I saw even more con ... 1m² of PV cell on the roof: enough to operate the radio 10 min
Still, a manufacturer, above all, it sells cars ... There are only two ways currently for their salvation:
- Low-cost
- The hybrid preferably rechargeable
you chose the first ... The models reuse the platforms of the old ones, the GMPs evolve little; we modify the bodywork and move the factories to Eastern Europe
The crisis in the automobile market, even more so in France, would not take place if hybrids worthy of the name were ready to be put on the market.
My last sentence is beautiful and has indeed become a utopia because of the denial of the right technological choice and good economic sense.
Here are all the friends ...
0 x
- Former Oceano
- Moderator
- posts: 1571
- Registration: 04/06/05, 23:10
- Location: Lorraine - France
- x 1
Weight, an enemy in the case of the automobile, is an ally in the case of locomotives. These machines must be heavy for grip concerns. My father, who was a railroader, told me that certain electric machines had so much torque when starting that they jumped next to their rail despite their weight if you engaged the traction too strongly ...
In cars it is necessary to keep reduced masses for reasons of energy saving and handling, there are no rails to stay on the road ...
Otherwise, I am in favor of an immediate solution such as Start and go. Even if it is not the latest technology, it is a first big step!
In cars it is necessary to keep reduced masses for reasons of energy saving and handling, there are no rails to stay on the road ...
Otherwise, I am in favor of an immediate solution such as Start and go. Even if it is not the latest technology, it is a first big step!
0 x
[MODO Mode = ON]
Zieuter but do not think less ...
Peugeot Ion (VE), KIA Optime PHEV, VAE, no electric motorcycle yet...
Zieuter but do not think less ...
Peugeot Ion (VE), KIA Optime PHEV, VAE, no electric motorcycle yet...
- Woodcutter
- Econologue expert
- posts: 4731
- Registration: 07/11/05, 10:45
- Location: Mountain ... (Trièves)
- x 2
I don't think I said the opposite ... I was just talking about the constraints inherent in the use of these two mobiles ...Remundo wrote:[...] Of course that an SNCF power train and a car are different. But not in principle. [...]
If you were a little older on this forum, you would know that I defend the hybrid series for a long time ... It was worth to me some exacerbated reactions of people (I do not know who anymore?) retorting me that the output could not be good ... I even saw (I must have kept it somewhere) a presentation by an engineer (mechanical graduate? ) showing that it could not work because of a not good performance!Remundo wrote:[...]In fact, the best architecture that can be considered for a car is the series hybrid.
Anyway, I believed in it for a long time ...
Remundo wrote:[...] 3. Very high efficiency of electro-electric conversions (> 85%) compared to a gearbox (loss of 5 to 10% with each gear crossed: mini 4 or 5 in the gearbox + mini 2 in the axle)
4. The electric traction is much more suitable for a car than a combustion engine because it has a large torque at low speed and a lower torque at high speed (the engine is the opposite, and that's why you have to play the gearbox ...)
Exaggeration, no matter where it comes from, is never a good advisor ...
10% loss at each gear by counting 6 gears in a row (is that what you're saying?) That gives us 53% of power transmitted between the crankshaft and the wheels ... Are you kidding yourself? What is your mechanical engineering degree?
Concerning point 4, I suppose that you should not have followed the last evolutions of the turbocharged engines with direct injection whose torque curves are flat (clipped by the regulation) between 1600-1800 rpm and 5000 rpm. ..
But I agree with you that electric traction is perfectly suited to the mobility of private vehicles.
Have you read the comments of DoubleHybride, a Lyonnais who reported more than 2 years of using a Kangoo Elect'Road? As much the operation in EV seemed to satisfy him, as much it seems to me that in "range extender", it was much less convincing!Remundo wrote:[...] "One" knows perfectly how to do it since the years 2000 and it is Renault in France which was absolute leader with the Elect'road.
Absolute leader, hi, hi, hi! They were alone ...
Hats off to the pioneers of this great house who had the courage to carry their project to the end, they did not have to make friends.
It was you who put the Prius on the carpet, compared to vehicles equipped with Stop & Start ... We should not confuse everything!Remundo wrote:[...] The Prius would make the deal without problem if Toyota made them RECHARGEABLE and put a little more than 4 batteries which give the soul in 5 min at 40 to the hour ... To reproach Prius their consumption amounts to reproach to a ferrari not to go fast enough because it would miss a wheel.
Is your Franco-French example applicable EVERYWHERE mechanical engineering is sufficiently developed around the world?Remundo wrote:[...]In reality, this is what is happening ...
blabla
[...]
It would never occur to you that maybe, eventually, we never know each other (sometimes if someone other than you is right ...) there might not be only that as reasons, but also a pinch of technical difficulties / economic positioning of the products which would make it not so easy to sell them?
0 x
"I am a big brute, but I rarely mistaken ..."
-
- Moderator
- posts: 79304
- Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
- Location: Greenhouse planet
- x 11037
Woodcutter wrote:Well, since we are talking about hybrid, engine-nature and consumption
where it has enabled consumption to be reduced by 10% in the official European cycle (urban and road average). Better still, during a test on a very dense urban route, we measured a reduction in consumption of 24%! The kit is available in the United Kingdom at a price of 2750 pounds, excluding taxes, but installed and installed, i.e. around 3375 €.
So at best "profitable" after 3375 / 0.24 € = 14 € fuel bill at worst (000%) after 10 € ...
No worse than some high-end solar kit you will tell me ... but surely not econological ... at least not one on a car ... I remain on a water doping ...
Is it approved? http://www.connaughtengineering.com/
0 x
Do a image search or an text search - Netiquette of forum
-
- Econologue expert
- posts: 2183
- Registration: 07/11/06, 13:18
- x 124
Remundo wrote::D
Because you think it's so complicated to connect a motor to a generator and batteries, and then use the batteries with a motor?
What is pompously called a series hybrid is a grossomodo generator, to which an electric motor is connected.
Sometimes, we even use a single electric machine, sometimes a motor (battery discharge), sometimes a generator (battery recharge), but it's a little more complicated (choice of the Honda IMA) for power electronics.
The series hybrid is also called a Diesel-electric locomotive that would have a battery pack ...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive ... 9lectrique
Just that there is no battery on the loco, but it would not be complicated to put ...
I can't resist showing you the old raft at Clermont Ferrand station
VOILA the avant-garde technology on which the manufacturers reflect ardently for another 10 years so it is complicated
The basic series hybrid with a Li-Ion battery pack, it is infinitely simpler than the least ABS, ESP or air bag management with accelerometer, servos in all directions between different systems packed with electronics that do not do not always coexist well ...
To promote the alternator-starter is to amuse the gallery ...
I had a friend at the SNCF, now retired, when he started out he was a driver and in the electric diesel locos that I could visit there were plenty of lead batteries, several tons in my opinion, used in auxiliary power source.
SNCF has a research service, we are interested in hybridization:
http://recherche.sncf.com/approfondir_l ... art05.html
0 x
- Woodcutter
- Econologue expert
- posts: 4731
- Registration: 07/11/05, 10:45
- Location: Mountain ... (Trièves)
- x 2
Back to "New transport: innovations, engines, pollution, technologies, policies, organization ..."
Who is online ?
Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 187 guests