A world without money?

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eclectron
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Re: A world without money?




by eclectron » 04/03/21, 08:22

Ahmed wrote:Le R. Bohringer mixes everything up a bit and it is all the same the debt which, far from bringing all peoples * to their knees, irrigates the economy (I am placing myself here from the point of view of the immanent criticism which is that of the one you quote) .

I don't know if he mixes up but anyway he says a lot of true things.
The policies do not serve much any more, the finance has an undemocratic power, that of distributing the money.
Money also called currency debt, which implies growth, which implies the enslavement of peoples.
To say that it is the blood of the economy is true and we can boast of the positive effects of money, but this very reducing on the negative and perverse effects of money when it is in the form of debt currency.
Absolutely all money in circulation (other than coins and bills) is debt, even our savings.
Someone in the world owes a bank, in the form of a loan, the money we have in savings. There is only one real winner in this system, it is not nature, it is not humanity (except to ignore the negative effects as would a liberal : Mrgreen: ), these are the banks.

Gael Griraud, from this sequence (1h 02mn) and the 4mn30s which follow evokes the "active" currency instead of the debt currency to finance ecological reconstruction.
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Re: A world without money?




by eclectron » 04/03/21, 08:25

moinsdewatt wrote:
eclectron wrote:For the next world, a world without money?
The video ends on the project https://www.mocica.org that I haven't watched yet
Listening to him, I feel less alone.



A sweet dreamer for now, a potential guru who can go wrong in the future.

and if not on the merits, an opinion something relevant to say?
"sweet dreamer" is already a laconic opinion and therefore very very subjective.
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ABC2019
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Re: A world without money?




by ABC2019 » 04/03/21, 08:27

I have nothing against a world without money, but I still do not understand on what basis we distribute the rights to consumption. If you don't like exotic wood verandas like the man in the video, let's talk about the car: who do you give a car to, on what basis, and of what power / size / etc .....?
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Re: A world without money?




by eclectron » 04/03/21, 08:42

Ahmed wrote:The term civilization implies inequality (which does not mean that it never exists outside this framework). The criteria of inequalities are numerous and most of the time unrelated to money


The term civilization implies a form of specialization, which indeed can lead to a form of inequality: income, privileges, honors.
What prevents us from imposing equality by law (as on our town hall pediments? : Mrgreen: )
The Icelandic Prime Minister lives in normal official accommodation and not in a Golden Palace.
A form of equality is already possible in the world of money, it is a question of mentality and of will.

When one has the chance and the capacity to work on great things, say a vaccine to stay in the news, with equal pay, one is moreover rewarded by the feeling of having "done well".
I feel that my example with the vaccine is going to get out of hand. : Mrgreen:

Ahmed wrote: nothing is easier than to exchange disproportionate goods between them, because it is enough that this is the general rule. Thus, what is "unequal" in one direction will be so again in the other.

Excellent remark!
It would be the civilization of the gift.
You give and you know that you will get back, even if it is shifted in time and space.

However the fearful formatted by the world of money, formatted by "the one who gives, loses" will not be reassured ...
We touch here on the irrationality of people ...
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Re: A world without money?




by eclectron » 04/03/21, 08:44

ABC2019 wrote:I have nothing against a world without money, but I still do not understand on what basis we distribute the rights to consumption. If you don't like exotic wood verandas like the man in the video, let's talk about the car: who do you give a car to, on what basis, and of what power / size / etc .....?

Do you read what I answer you?
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Re: A world without money?




by eclectron » 04/03/21, 08:48

ABC2019 wrote:I have nothing against a world without money, but I still do not understand on what basis we distribute the rights to consumption. If you don't like exotic wood verandas like the man in the video, let's talk about the car: who do you give a car to, on what basis, and of what power / size / etc .....?

I anticipate the next question (we are used to it) which will be
Or did I answer?
society-and-philosophy / a-world-without-money-t16779-10.html # p434238

eclectron wrote:So I detail a little more, these are just my personal ideas, nothing to do with the people in the video, except chance or common sense. : Wink: I do not know at all what they offer, not yet had time ....

One can imagine a site / automaton like "the good corner" which centralizes the requests and centralizes the offers.
if there is enough supply, nothing to say.
if there is too much offer, calmos to the offerors!
if there is a shortage, the info feedback to the bidders is immediate, either they increase the production,
or it is materially impossible and in this case: random drawing of the lucky ones among the applicants.
This is a centralization of knowledge of means and resources, which allows instant "planning", to the best of what is possible.
an insistent shortage that could lead to changes in the means of production.
In fact, just like with money, but without money and with equal treatment for each individual. : Mrgreen:
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Re: A world without money?




by Ahmed » 04/03/21, 08:57

He mixes up a lot of things and, unfortunately, so do you; for example when you write:
Absolutely all money in circulation (other than coins and bills) is debt, even our savings.

No! Coins and banknotes are non-nominal IOUs (since they have no intrinsic value). What fools you is your focus on money creation. If you managed to disregard it, you would realize that it does not change the current functioning since it is not the primary cause of growth ...
But that's okay, since if we remove the money, the debate closes on its own! 8)

For ABC: suppressing money supposes suppressing labor and commodities, so the concern for the distribution of commodities does not arise. If you want a veranda, you round up a bunch of neighbors or friends (who are available, since they no longer lose their lives in earning it) and you go up and down ... 8) Obviously, the "consumption" aspect (to use a term that has become anachronistic, but I'm doing it only so that you understand) would be fundamentally different, as much in its orientations as in its volumes (since things would only be produced to satisfy human needs. and not that of an irrational accumulation of abstract value).

I will reply later to the message you just sent while I was writing these lines myself.
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Re: A world without money?




by ABC2019 » 04/03/21, 09:00

Ahmed wrote:For ABC: suppressing money supposes suppressing labor and commodities, so the concern for the distribution of commodities does not arise. If you want a veranda, you round up a bunch of neighbors or friends (who are available, since they no longer lose their lives in earning it) and you go up and down ... 8) Obviously, the "consumption" aspect (to use a term that has become anachronistic, but I'm doing it only so that you understand) would be fundamentally different, as much in its orientations as in its volumes (since things would only be produced to satisfy human needs. and not that of an irrational accumulation of abstract value).
.

good ok, but good suddenly more oranges, bananas, spices, cotton, coffee, chocolate, for example then?
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Re: A world without money?




by eclectron » 04/03/21, 09:37

Ahmed wrote: 1) Coins and banknotes are non-nominal IOUs
(2) since they have no intrinsic value). .
I don't understand either 1 or 2 : Mrgreen: . Can you say the same thing more simply and explaining?

Ahmed wrote: What fools you is your focus on money creation. If you managed to disregard it, you would realize that it does not change the current functioning since it is not the primary cause of growth ....

In fact it is. A business is created to earn a living, to earn money.
An employee is taken for the same reasons
What all these little people want is "to capture money from the money supply" to survive, or even very well for some.
All this turmoil, physical, of resources and means, is called growth.
Desire for money, or even simply the need for money, and growth are inextricably linked. (in capitalism in normal mode, not when central banks make "helicopter money")


Ahmed wrote: For ABC: suppressing money supposes suppressing labor and commodities.

It does not suppress human activity, nor goods and services, because we must continue to live.
It takes away all the fuss that's going on, just to have the money to live on.
This removes the prostitution effect of the employee and the macro effect of the entrepreneur.

All our comforts of life cannot be done with neighbors, we always need "factories" where people are volunteers.
Example: it takes a certain degree of industrialization to make plastic syringes, or glass syringes as of yesteryear.
Ditto for the needles.
It would be necessary to succeed in developing in people the pride of working for the good, to develop the feeling of being useful.

Suppressing money, would suppress the race for the latter and therefore suppress the nonsense.
Okay, can't I get my key ring out with a real goldfish in it? : Mrgreen:
The 1st confinement showed how many professions are really useful.
Take away the money and focus on the useful. This would be a decrease in itself, since growth would no longer be induced by the desire for money.
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Re: A world without money?




by ABC2019 » 04/03/21, 10:12

eclectron wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:I have nothing against a world without money, but I still do not understand on what basis we distribute the rights to consumption. If you don't like exotic wood verandas like the man in the video, let's talk about the car: who do you give a car to, on what basis, and of what power / size / etc .....?

Do you read what I answer you?

yes, and I still haven't understood the answer.

Who is going to worry about harvesting oranges, bananas, cocoa, and having them transported to distant countries which do not have them, if he does not gain anything by doing so? and who will transport them elsewhere?
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Mééé denies nui went to parties with 200 people and was not even sick moiiiiiii (Guignol des bois)

 


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