Conservation agriculture

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
izentrop
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by izentrop » 21/02/19, 17:05

Moindreffor wrote:you are right, conservation agriculture, has the merit of exploring other ways,
I think that our farmers, see the impasse of the conventional, or we will say it to the endism, the overbidding and the maladjustment of a bio that does not finish being minimalist to go towards the conversion to the bio, to reach the objectives set and to be able to congratulate themselves on the success of these objectives
so we have to go to something else
I did not understand very well.
For my part, I have pretty well revised my judgment on organic agroforestry.

With these international meetings, a lot of novelties and progress, I find ...
The contribution of trees in agroforestry allows to do as in phenoculture, but with production of fertilizer on site (BRF, dead leaves, root exudates). Trees are going to look for nutrients much more deeply than crop plants, without hindering their growth if it is well managed. When trees grow big, they can be harvested, it's much more productive in biomass than cutting them ...
The ground still covered is also essential, but with associated plants destroyed or not, according to.
With a maintenance rate of humus 8%, no need for additional fertilizer, so the bio productive is possible. : Wink:
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by Did67 » 21/02/19, 17:10

izentrop wrote:Very interesting conference where the regulars of "earthworm" participate, with a magnificent speech from our former Minister of Agriculture.

It brings numerical solutions to global warming, by global agriculture here at 3 h 34


I missed. A visitor who has landed. I have a capture software but I do not know what happened: no sound!

If I understand correctly, it's already online ????

It remains to find the time. I put, at my own pace, a little order in the kitchen garden, where I have done nothing since the end of the summer, if not harvest a little ...

Note: we fall back on about 8% of MO ... But I have to look at this in detail. A priori, and suspiciously, it holds. After, BRF, hay, straw, these are trade-offs between "speed of decomposition", "rate of humification" - the famous k1 (in other words, what is preferred: the short term and mineralization or the long term, vai a storage and the "long way", humification then secondary mineralization ...

I look forward to watching this.
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by Did67 » 21/02/19, 17:22

izentrop wrote:
With these international meetings, a lot of novelties and progress, I find ...
The contribution of trees in agroforestry allows to do as in phenoculture, but with production of fertilizer on site (BRF, dead leaves, root exudates). Trees are going to look for nutrients much more deeply than crop plants, without hindering their growth if it is well managed. When trees grow big, they can be harvested, it's much more productive in biomass than cutting them ...
The ground still covered is also essential, but with associated plants destroyed or not, according to.
With a maintenance rate of humus 8%, no need for additional fertilizer, so the bio productive is possible. : Wink:


I still haven't seen it, but be careful: the surface area trees capture light, even in agroforestry, affects production. For those who circulate with open eyes, look at the "hold" of a tree on a neighboring field of wheat or corn ... Under the tree, there is no grain, no more than there is There are herbaceous plants in a forest, and then there is a halo where the cereals are much less tall ...

Even if there are synergies, on the soil exploration, a microclimate and a reduction of the ETP [Evapo-Potential Swing] in the case of well-managed hedges (all the hedges are not favorable, some can even hurt!) ... which make total biomass production superior. The most frequent will be the situation where before, a pure cereal gave 100. In agroforestry, it will give 85 and the tree will produce 20. So will have 105, but only 85 of wheat instead of 100 ...

Competition for water is another issue. There again, it suffices to move around with your eyes open to sometimes see dried-up "grass mats" under trees, while elsewhere, the grass is a little greener. The tree will not ONLY fetch water from the depths. And he takes root as best he can! And then the water circulates in humidity gradients, from the wettest to the driest ...

You have to be careful here and I have read a little "idealistic" things which do not always hold ...

But I look first ...
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by Janic » 21/02/19, 19:38

that's where you make another mistake
it is not for the reader to make the effort to understand it is for the author to be understandable, (..)
This is indeed what we offer to small children who are not used to the more abstract concepts of adults and that we even complete with images that speak to them better. But it only happens during a limited time to the acquisition of more complete concepts with its rules and later, these acquired concepts, we ask them to analyze even more elaborated reflections like philosophy, semantics, etc ...
So no ! From a certain level of education the individual is supposed to understand the various nuances of the language in order to decode the different discourses that are proposed to them. So I guess you never read Kant or Nietzche.

because what would be "true" and what would have "false" the others?

As Nico would say it is the domain of philosophy where the answer is still not made. But for all that, at the level of everyday life, this concept, vague as it may be, is widely used. For example, parents who ask their children, " it's true what you tell me Even though parents spend their time lying. In court, the question also arises, " I did not kill or rape the girl But is it true or false? So it's not a matter of decreeing that this or that rightly or wrongly, it would be too easy and dangerous, but it's the facts, ALL the facts, who decide.
Thus various products were removed from the market because manufacturers claimed the safety and non-dangerousness of their products and considered, by them first and by those who should use it with profit, that it was true and some time later, this pretense of being true turns out to be false, and it is the independent tribunals that finally decide between each party after examining all the available exhibits. So it's not me or you who decide by belief.

you often speak of the "true", I would have said "the history" which would be more correct, no?

I only emphasized what Did says, with his "more than bio" which raises the question of what bio? (as Stalin's communism was different from that of Lenin, himself from Marx). When I say true bio it is in reference to the founding system having laid down its own criteria (justified or not) of what should or should be true bio, compared to the chemical of the time. half goat as suggested by conservation agriculture) As one can not compare Marx and Stalin either. Here is the history actually, but not the cultural mode that lays the foundations of the future bio that will be degraded by its official recognition AB to open this mode of cultivation to a larger number rejected by the "requirements" of organic defined by its initiators. And so even worse with conservation agriculture.
Yet again, these are humans with different paths, choices, different beliefs too, which, proportionately, are better than agrochemicals that have invaded, without sharing, agriculture at the highest decision-making level. Like allopathy having followed the same completely chemical path and which also cracks more and more (in the West since in the East it does not have the impact here) and we also find there this "conservation allopathy" where doctors sometimes practice synthetic chemicals, sometimes non-chemicals!
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by Moindreffor » 21/02/19, 20:15

izentrop wrote:
Moindreffor wrote:you are right, conservation agriculture, has the merit of exploring other ways,
I think that our farmers, see the impasse of the conventional, or we will say it to the endism, the overbidding and the maladjustment of a bio that does not finish being minimalist to go towards the conversion to the bio, to reach the objectives set and to be able to congratulate themselves on the success of these objectives
so we have to go to something else
I did not understand very well.

I just wanted to say that the conventional has shown its limits and that the bio can not win despite the constant lightening of the specifications, so it remains to find the agriculture of tomorrow, no matter what name it is given

agroforestry looks like two drops of water to agriculture before each field or pasture surrounded by hedgerows, consolidation and development of machines have made their hedges disappear, we seem to rediscover their role

the exploitation of the tadpoles I was talking about it with a friend this morning, abandoned in my corner for those who remain
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by Moindreffor » 21/02/19, 20:22

Did67 wrote:
izentrop wrote:
With these international meetings, a lot of novelties and progress, I find ...
The contribution of trees in agroforestry allows to do as in phenoculture, but with production of fertilizer on site (BRF, dead leaves, root exudates). Trees are going to look for nutrients much more deeply than crop plants, without hindering their growth if it is well managed. When trees grow big, they can be harvested, it's much more productive in biomass than cutting them ...
The ground still covered is also essential, but with associated plants destroyed or not, according to.
With a maintenance rate of humus 8%, no need for additional fertilizer, so the bio productive is possible. : Wink:


I still haven't seen it, but be careful: the surface area trees capture light, even in agroforestry, affects production. For those who circulate with open eyes, look at the "hold" of a tree on a neighboring field of wheat or corn ... Under the tree, there is no grain, no more than there is There are herbaceous plants in a forest, and then there is a halo where the cereals are much less tall ...

Even if there are synergies, on the soil exploration, a microclimate and a reduction of the ETP [Evapo-Potential Swing] in the case of well-managed hedges (all the hedges are not favorable, some can even hurt!) ... which make total biomass production superior. The most frequent will be the situation where before, a pure cereal gave 100. In agroforestry, it will give 85 and the tree will produce 20. So will have 105, but only 85 of wheat instead of 100 ...

Competition for water is another issue. There again, it suffices to move around with your eyes open to sometimes see dried-up "grass mats" under trees, while elsewhere, the grass is a little greener. The tree will not ONLY fetch water from the depths. And he takes root as best he can! And then the water circulates in humidity gradients, from the wettest to the driest ...

You have to be careful here and I have read a little "idealistic" things which do not always hold ...

But I look first ...

what I observe at home is that with the disappearance of the soil, we are more and more often very close to the water table and some fields are flooded in winter, not by an excess of precipitation but by an overflow of the tablecloth
the trees also allow a return of the water, one can see it in certain regions where the afforestation allowed the return of the water, the water which no longer flows infiltrates and recharges the tablecloth, so there is indeed of all that

along the river, there are a lot of willow tadpoles which are unfortunately abandoned, and often when they are pruned too rich man keeps the big branches and burns on the spot which would give the BRF, so we must relearn
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 21/02/19, 21:08

Did67 wrote:Competition for water is another issue. There again, it suffices to move around with your eyes open to, sometimes, see dry "grass mats" under trees.


If there were no counter examples it would not be funny Image

It was before our development, ground abandoned to itself, no watering and after the summer (the photo date of 12 September)

Grilled in the background, and almost green under the oaks.

in the shade of the oaks.JPG
in the shade of the oaks.JPG (166 Kio) Viewed 2142 times


Well, this is not vegetables either : Mrgreen: , maybe herbs that go well with oaks

in the shade of the oaks_2.JPG
in the shade of oaks_2.JPG (116.68 KIO) Viewed 2141 times


That said you're right trees is not always the best.

I think that agroforestry, which I know badly enough, knows how to marry vegetables and trees that can coexist, otherwise no interest.
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by Did67 » 21/02/19, 22:04

Interesting, your photos ...

So yes, it's not so simple ...

Probably a shading effect, but probably also the accumulation of organic matter / dead leaves / soil life ????

Without analysis, one can only formulate hypotheses.

That being said, on one side grilled grass, it's a fact. On the other hand, if it had been a wheat, it would not have produced anything.

In your situation, this year, it is the question of water that has dominated the debate ...

And indeed, one day, I wrote it somewhere about Portugal, the further south you go, the more relevant an agroforestry with "the right density of trees" is.

Elsewhere, it will be the competition for the light which will dominate the debate, and it will be the reverse. Or when the perimeter is irrigated. I have it in mind but not I did not have the camera, while driving this late spring, I saw a wheat "depressed" along a hedge and very beautiful elsewhere. The exact opposite of your photo.

Like what, one must always make a complete diagnosis on a system.
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 21/02/19, 22:15

Did67 wrote:Interesting, your photos ...

So yes, it's not so simple ...

Probably a shading effect, but probably also the accumulation of organic matter / dead leaves / soil life ????

Without analysis, one can only formulate hypotheses.

That being said, on one side grilled grass, it's a fact. On the other hand, if it had been a wheat, it would not have produced anything.

In your situation, this year, it is the question of water that has dominated the debate ...

And indeed, one day, I wrote it somewhere about Portugal, the further south you go, the more relevant an agroforestry with "the right density of trees" is.

Elsewhere, it will be the competition for the light which will dominate the debate, and it will be the reverse. Or when the perimeter is irrigated. I have it in mind but not I did not have the camera, while driving this late spring, I saw a wheat "depressed" along a hedge and very beautiful elsewhere. The exact opposite of your photo.

Like what, one must always make a complete diagnosis on a system.



So accumulation of organic matter is on: a real big MAT of oak leaves that's for sure.

Umbridge I think it's almost certain.

An underground vein? Who knows?

As we do not live there yet, not possible to give information on the weather this summer there but the fact is that everything that was not in the shade grilled is on.


The report I saw on agroforestry was in Portugal as well.
But I do not remember at all what they grew among the trees ... : Shock:
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Re: Conservation agriculture




by izentrop » 22/02/19, 01:06

8% is the ideal humus level, corresponding to that of an old natural meadow or forest. He spoke about 20% of UAA to devote to the coppices needed to produce the annual BRF cm and this is in Belgium.

The impact of trees in the south of France, the summer would be rather 30% to the advantage of agroforestry with between 30 and 50 trees / ha judiciously chosen http://www.agroforesterie.fr/documents/ ... sterie.pdf
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