Lazy garden ... help

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Adrien (ex-nico239)
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 19/01/19, 15:04

Did67 wrote:
I do not always agree on everything the Burgundians say, but it remains that they are real soil scientists (which I am not!). They write :

"La Terra Preta: Anthropogenic soil of great fertility due to a high concentration of charcoal, organic matter, nutrients. These soils generally contain a lot of fragments of pottery and have a strong biological activity. We are often asked. how to apply this in France for example. It should be understood that Terra preta can only develop and function on oxisols, latosols, or ferralsols. These soils have very old clays (kaolinite) of which the CEC is almost non-existent. pre-Columbian civilizations (large farmers) had (empirically) found that in THEIR environment, on THEIR soil, terra preta was the best way to guarantee sustainable production on soils which, without the forest, quickly become infertile. "

in:

Add to this the fact that it works better in some soils than in others! Or at least I would have translated it like that: the effects observed, compared to the surrounding groundare much more spectacular in these soils.

Understand that the Amazon, like all tropical zones, does not work with humic substances, mineralized too quickly under these conditions (heat, humidity). This gives these red, lateritic soils, without "OM" as we say. All organic matter is immediately "mineralized". And either leached or reused. In fact, both. So putting a "battery" capable of recharging very quickly, coal, is obviously a plus! In these conditions and in these soils! Like when you have a good shit and you take coal! But when we digest well, will it indeed improve our life ???


Well seen the quote of Burgundy ... :!:
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by franz3008 » 19/01/19, 18:57

Thank you very much for all your research Didier. I'm really sorry you have so much work with my bullshit. I found the continuation on the indicated site.
Milpa is an agricultural system that combines crops, legumes and vegetables in a single field, maximizing not only the total yield of the area, but also improving soil fertility from one year to the next. In combination with biochar, mulching and nutrient recycling, it is possible to build humus, store carbon and promote biodiversity. The Milpa was a crucial foundation of advanced civilization and an existential requirement for the great cities of the Incas, Mayans and Aztecs. Milpa on Terra Preta could also become the key to developing sustainable urban agglomerations.
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 19/01/19, 19:50

franz3008 wrote:Milpa on Terra Preta could also become the key to developing sustainable urban agglomerations.



Why not but only in South America ...

We have to get by with what we have ...
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by franz3008 » 19/01/19, 20:15

https://translate.google.com/
Is it worth burying the biochar on the ground?

This was not the case in the Amazon or Australia, where aboriginals used biochar to improve their soil and where, even today, there are more than 100 tons of biochar in about one hectare of soil. Although there was no money as a means of payment at that time, the efficiency of the former coal miners for 100 tons of biochar would have required the charring of about 2 000 tons of wood. This corresponds to 300 at 400 tall trees in the rainforest, which fell without a chain saw and ax and whose coal should be transported without draft animals to the field.
So, the idea of ​​bringing dozens of tonnes of biochar to the field can only come from academics who have drawn a false observation (50 tons of biochar per hectare) from an appropriate observation (massive and unique application of biochar ). And not to mention that no soil is Terra Preta, simply because you plow a lot of coal.
Principles of biochar loading

If untreated biochar is incorporated into the soil, its high adsorption performance and increasing CAC level would result in nutrients and soil water being absorbed and bound by the biochar. This, in turn, at least during the initial period (a few months to a year) and depending on the nutrient content of the soil, would result in inhibition of plant growth. To avoid this, the biochar should, before entering the soil:

be loaded with nutrients and water
colonized by microorganisms, whereby fixed nutrients are more readily available to the plant
be aged by oxidation to bring the CEC close to its maximum before entering the soil.

The experience of Andreas Thomsen clearly shows the importance of the biochar load. In the upper test series, pure plant cabbage dust was added at increasing doses. In the lower row of images, the biochar was first composted for 4 months, then cleaned of compost, so no additional compost was used, but only the loaded biochar was used in the experiment . While the pure biocharbon resulted in growth inhibition of the sown plants, in the loaded coal variant, a significant increase in growth could be recorded (thanks to Andreas Thomsen).
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by franz3008 » 19/01/19, 20:21

http://www.ithaka-journal.net/pflanzenk ... kreislaufe
The current imbalance of the global carbon and nitrogen cycle is not only the main cause of climate change, it also directly threatens ecosystems due to excessive fertilization, species extinction and devastation. . It is only through a coherent recycling of organic carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus that the equilibrium of ecosystems can be preserved. Biochar technology could play a key role in this, as it not only converts carbon from a wide variety of biomass into a stable form, but also binds the volatile nutrients contained in biomass residues and makes them usable for reuse. agricultural. Biochar technology is still in its infancy, but the prospects for its use are already clearly in the agriculture and livestock sectors, as well as in industry.
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by Did67 » 20/01/19, 11:02

franz3008 wrote:Milpa is an agricultural system that combines crops, legumes and vegetables in a single field, maximizing not only the total yield of the area, but also improving soil fertility from one year to the next. In combination with biochar, mulching and nutrient recycling, it is possible to build humus, store carbon and promote biodiversity. The Milpa was a crucial foundation of advanced civilization and an existential requirement for the great cities of the Incas, Mayans and Aztecs. Milpa on Terra Preta could also become the key to developing sustainable urban agglomerations.


For an agronomist, this kind of "reasoning" is very naive. A bit like a kid who sees a Saturn V rocket take off and wants his father to buy him one to go to his soccer game!

There are thousands of systems around the world. Each more or less adapted to its environment: soils, altitude, climates, human cultures ...

Another good example is the system developed by Fukuoka in Japan, with alternating rapid rotation of rice and cereals, without any work. As is generally rice farming.

At home, we have forgotten - so we idolize exotic systems such as Milpa, was the three-year rotation based on a root crop (potato type), a main cereal (wheat or spelled), a secondary cereal (barley or oats) then a legume crop (alfalfa). The combination of legumes was at a rate of 3 or 4 years. Given the inventory of elements in a soil, it does not change anything we associate each year on 1 / 3 surface or alternates on 3 years ...

I have explained I don't know where that the idea that "legumes" give nitrogen to other plants is far-fetched and based on nothing - except the fantasy of sweet dreamers. The bean "fixes" only about 40 to 50% of the nitrogen it needs ...

The Milpa has its place, where it is. Like thousands of systems have theirs, around the world.

The question of the amount of wood to produce biochar was asked in the excerpt I translated. It may be necessary to remember that terra preta are scattered spots, at the location of villages, or old villages, with a ridiculously low population density. It is not with that that you will feed a city!

Here. It's my point of view. Do not take it wrong. It is to explain to everyone.
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by franz3008 » 20/01/19, 14:20

Didier I want to thank you for your answer that opened my eyes. It is always very interesting to see the reflections of a wise I am only a beginner.
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by Did67 » 20/01/19, 14:44

"Sage" is too much.

I am a "technician" trying to understand systems. Each system is made up of elements, but also includes "rules" (in physics, we say "laws"). Agrosystems are systems that convert solar energy into biomass. With more or less efficiency. They are more or less durable. And they all have "flaws", or "limitations".

Idolizing a system remains idolatry.

It's often linked to fashions.

Sometimes in connection with "gurus".

Whose majority prefers to "imprison" than to release ... Sometimes, just for reasons of ego (need to shine). Often, for more pernicious, psychologically deeper reasons (need to exist becoming a need to dominate) ...

Internet is a formidable machine to imprison, by peddling fashions, by flattering the need for belief which is in each one of us. By offering simple, binary systems: "such and such is wonderful". So "everything else is crap!"

It is always astonishing to observe how the fans of these fashions "flit" from one fashion to another: the time to realize that what they believed is not so obvious, they are off on another "obviousness" "(instead of questioning their need for belief, their addiction). The gurus change, but the principle remains: above all not to think, above all not to think, above all not to think that reality is complex, difficult to define, controversial. Necessarily.

This is not wisdom. It's just a little mistrust, some form of common sense, a lot of science and 65 years of life!
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by Julienmos » 20/01/19, 15:55

Did67 wrote:
This is not wisdom. It's just a little mistrust, some kind of common sense, a lot of science and 65 years of life!


unrelated question (as usual) : Oops:
does your scientific knowledge (which no one who frequents this site can doubt for a second) also extend to a subject like ... dietetics?
because I suppose that because of your cardiac history, you have to pay a lot of attention to that ... and that so you have the topic?
for example, we eat all too much meat it seems ... and (very) poor quality often. But how to replace that?
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Re: Lazy Potager's Kitchen ... help




by Did67 » 20/01/19, 16:22

Dietetics, in the sense of "coherent human rationing", I acquired some knowledge. But here too, I see that it is the fashions that dominate. And that what is advised today will not be recommended tomorrow. Because we are mainly in the "recipe". "We must eat so much and so much of this", "we must not eat that" ... Orthorexia (this disease consisting of imprisoning the mind with too much "must ...") wins.

And marketing rushes into all this.

I recently I do not know where the "fashion" of juices has fallen, which are all you want: detoxifying, energizing, remineralizing ... Etc ... I note especially that until a few years ago, man has developed, has selected its genes without a juice extractor!

To come back to your question: I am "flexivore" and try to reduce my share of meat, especially red meat. I have almost - except invitation, feast day, etc. - removed the cured meats. Because that is the real problem, in transformations and additives of all kinds, especially nitrites.

Afterwards, I stumble, I have already written it, on the fact that I have a very great "rigidity" in my tastes and do not like soya derivatives. I find the quinoa bofbof, even if I eat it.

So even when I know, I'm lying!

Frankly, without causing death, I prefer to live another 10 years by eating what I like, while trying every day to do better, than to become a sad and boring centenary because every day I eat rutabaga and I do not like it ! It's a choice. I assume. For the same reason, although I know that alcohol is harmful from the first centilitre contrary to what we would like us to believe, I drink from time to time a glass of Côte du Rhône or Burgundy. bio, of course. Even if it is not a panacea.
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