inter seasonal storage solar thermal

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sicetaitsimple
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 28/01/20, 21:21

GuyGadebois wrote:So, if I understand you correctly, is there any way to recover this waste of calories? Am i good?


I didn't say that ... We can do a lot of things, just find out who pays for it.

For example, biogas that you think fills your tank costs you the same as if it were Russian natural gas, when in fact at current gas market conditions it returns about 8 times more expensive.
It is me and over 30 million others who pay the difference.
We say thank you who?

It's scalable to almost anything, just find who pays.
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plasmanu
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by plasmanu » 28/01/20, 23:14

GuyGadebois wrote:Ah well, the losses from my PC directly heat the room where my PC is located. :D

It's obvious. Like what you can always learn.
But this case is for the winter when it is supposed to be cold.
As soon as the summer temperatures come back I encourage you to install your PC outside, it's the same logic.
Although we are not immune to a polar Vortex in midsummer
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 29/01/20, 12:00

It's scalable to almost anything, just find who pays.


This is why it is always necessary to integrate the notion of profitability or at least the final cost of the Kwh.
In addition to another advantage, this economic concept carries with it the search for performance optimization and therefore yield (or loss reduction as reasonably as possible).
The possibility also arises for certain complex systems, such as the transport of thermal energy, of the advantage of simulation.
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plasmanu
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by plasmanu » 29/01/20, 12:47

For simplicity.
Cogeneration divides the price of Wh by 2, it's a win-win
Trigeneration divides the price of Wh by 3, it's win win win
And so on. Prize divided by X (overall), it's a winner x X

Like Guy who consumes a lot with his pc but saves on heating. It's almost a win-win
Last edited by plasmanu the 29 / 01 / 20, 12: 51, 1 edited once.
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by GuyGadebois » 29/01/20, 12:50

We will arrive at such a dilution of the cost that the price will be homeopathic. : Mrgreen:
Last edited by GuyGadebois the 29 / 01 / 20, 12: 55, 1 edited once.
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by plasmanu » 29/01/20, 12:53

Well no, X is very expensive like allopathy, even if you get rid of it well : Mrgreen: you can be not wrong
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Christophe
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by Christophe » 23/12/22, 10:23

I just posted 2 documents on MCPs here: solar-thermal/inter-seasonal-storage-of-solar-thermal-energy-t11366.html

I put here this old CSTB doc from 2005:

Use of Phase Change Materials (PCM) in passive air conditioning and between-season heating

2005, it's been 17 years... studies and calculations are good, but concretely, where are we with the use of phase change materials for inter-seasonal storage? Given the energy context, it's time to get started... right?

See also:
https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/622883/reporting/fr

And one from 1988: Thermal storage by latent heat
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by Remundo » 23/12/22, 10:55

An idea that's been in my head for a few years.

Could we not consider an outdoor swimming pool
1) fairly well insulated on its side and top walls (why not a greenhouse above the pool and walls with high thermal resistance)
2) with a coil at the bottom of the pool and use it as a reversible heat pump with glycol water.

In summer, calories could be brought in, both by the sun and the cooling of the house, calories that would diffuse into the depth of the ground.

On the contrary in winter, the heating of the house would draw the calories from the bottom of the swimming pool.

The swimming pool would behave like a well from which heat would be drawn or brought in.

After a few years, a large mass of soil under the pool could be at 20-25°C, maybe more. A fairly optimal temperature, whether you want to heat or air-condition (the COPs of the machines are then at least 5)

I say that with a wet finger, this idea came to me with DLSC.ca which applies this principle much more "industrially".

I would have liked to see simulations of thermal diffusion in the ground with weather scenarios, there is enough to model in my opinion.
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by Christophe » 23/12/22, 11:12

As I locked the older similar topic, I'm reposting the latest posts here:

Remundo wrote:the phase change material has 2 advantages
1) require less volume for the same stored heat
2) stabilize the temperature throughout the time it changes phase.

I don't have any personal experience on this subject to share.

but that must be thought out from the construction of a house, in general it is a pit under the house which will contain the materials with thermal inertia, and then piles of pipes to circulate the coolant. Not to mention the sensors on the roof!

So "get started", for those who already have a house, it's dead. Even worse in buildings.

For those who build, well, it's a bit of an adventure to get involved in this. What to wear, how to size it...?

From what I see around me, we build on one level with a cement slab that overlooks a stupid crawl space on the ground floor and a thin plank frame... And then we put a heat pump at the Q of the wall. And There you go.



Christophe wrote:Not necessarily impossible, it depends on what type of storage you want...in the walls this could be done during a thermal renovation with large encapsulated paraffin panels...like 2 m * 1 m * 0.2 m...

Volume: 0.4 m3 for 2m²... If there is 200 m² to treat, 40 m3 of PCM is needed.

So the concern is the price of the volumes because even with the cheapest paraffin, these 40 m3 that's thousands of euros... and I'm talking about raw paraffin without encapsulation...

Otherwise there is palm oil: solar-thermal / store-of-the-thermal-energy-with-from-oil-palm-of-t7421.html

ps: look at the 2 documents, they are quite synthetic...


AD 44 wrote:Hello,

There is no need to embark on the use of phase change materials...

The basement of buildings is a good way to store the summer surplus. Via air exchangers or a crown of buried multilayer.
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by Christophe » 23/12/22, 11:13

AD 44 wrote:Hello,

There is no need to embark on the use of phase change materials...

The basement of buildings is a good way to store the summer surplus. Via air exchangers or a crown of buried multilayer.


Except that it makes a temperature buffer that other materials do not have...
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