inter seasonal storage solar thermal

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lilian07
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 26/12/19, 10:25

I agree with you "sicetaitsimple" this simulation is not a habitat simulation but that of a heating for a greenhouse at the beginning of the design of a project (I should have indicated it).
It is simply to justify and show a simple case and that the RSI calculated at the beginning is carried out on solid data and not on approximate references or unfounded rantings.

To go further in thinking and looking at the data, this storage system works on the scale of a habitat, it is a more virtuous dice in the world, cyclical and infinite and improves over time. it also claims to offset the peak in energy need while reducing this need by around 25%.

In fact we could also show that today when we choose a water-water PAC heating system on vertical drilling or on horizontal field we could for the same investment realize this kind of drilling (storage and rechargeable) shallow and allowing to increase the COPA efficiency by around 1 (going from 4; 5 to 5; 6) unlike the PAC on drilling which tend to decrease in performance by exhausting the calories of the medium while causing some inconvenience on the groundwater .

This breakeven point for housing becomes even more true for the collective.
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Grelinette
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by Grelinette » 26/12/19, 11:13

sicetaitsimple wrote:In the present case, no, because independently of a cost estimate not presented, it is clear that this "virtual" installation would be quite incapable of supplying on its own the heating needs of an "average" dwelling located in Bourg. St Maurice.

My comment may be off topic, especially since I started following this topic but I was late in following it ...

If I understood the principle correctly, and to summarize simply: it is a question of storing the natural solar heat absorbed by a material during a hot period (summer), to restore this heat during a cold period (winter ).

So the simple question is whether there is a material which has the property of storing this heat long enough.
Then there is the question of cost of such an installation, and finally of Geographical location where this type of installation is interesting.
(In my opinion, we are waiting too much for a universal solution applicable to all regions: the principle of puit-provençal and gargoulette is not necessarily interesting in Stockholm).

To see the list of similar subjects recalled by Econologie, it seems that this subject of thermal storage is recurrent:
thermal storage.jpg
thermal storage.jpg (41.46 KB) Viewed 4644 times


It also seems that the debate is lost in unwise opposition: in the hypothesis where certain materials can have this faculty to store heat without too much perdition (without forgetting the annexed question of insulation), the idea seems interesting , especially for regions where the temperature differences are large.

Moreover, we note that there are more and more climatic extremes (heat wave in summer, extreme cold wave in winter), and climate experts predict even greater climatic differences in future years. . We can deduce that the idea of ​​inter-seasonal thermal storage will be more and more judicious and studied ...
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 26/12/19, 11:53

Grelinette wrote:So the simple question is whether there is a material which has the property of storing this heat long enough.
Then there is the question of cost of such an installation, and finally of Geographical location where this type of installation is interesting.
(In my opinion, we are waiting too much for a universal solution applicable to all regions: the principle of puit-provençal and gargoulette is not necessarily interesting in Stockholm).


On the material mentioned by Lilian07, it is clearly, well I think, a "dry" ground (in which there is no movement of layers).

On cost, geographical location, and also "need" (sizing), perfectly agreed. Which explains why I have some doubts about the general initial statement which was I recall it "In self-construction and with the drop in the costs of solar thermal panels and water-to-water heat pumps, off-season storage pays for itself in less than 10 years.". Do you doubt this generalization "get lost in unwise oppositions "?.
Technically, I have nothing against the principle of thermal mass storage, I carefully followed the annual reports of "Drake landing" at the start of the operation ten years ago, I still see that there has few operations of the same style (at least "visible" on the Internet with publication of results).
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lilian07
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 26/12/19, 23:07

In fact there are many and much larger ones often in regions with colder climates and where the cost of energy is higher than in France or new technological solutions.
DLSC is famous because the community managed to reach 97% solar thermal coverage in the 4th year for home heating.
82 Habitats that consume more than 150 Kwh / m2 / year because in Canada the climatic conditions are severe (stock yield around 45% after 3 years ...)
The soil conditions are ideally rocky dry .... wet yes but without runoff into the soil, which is rare.
The dimensions of the BTES are always important because the larger the volumes the greater the yield, the heat takes time to travel great distances in the ground.

Often drillers do not know the storage technique, or even heating engineers .... it is a discipline with multiple skills in addition to the soil parameters greatly influence the geometry of drilling, in short it is not easy especially for a habitat or we have to reinvent the way of drilling.

The idea of ​​storage in the ground for any type of thermal energy should be seriously studied to exploit any type of fatal energy for example.
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 27/12/19, 14:01

lilian07 wrote: 82 Habitats that consume more than 150 Kwh / m2 / year because in Canada the climatic conditions are severe (stock yield around 45% after 3 years ...)


There is an error. According to the balance sheet over 10 years, the average annual heating consumption is around 2400GJ, or 667MWh. For 52 (and not 82) dwellings with an average surface of 145m2. We are around 90kWh / m2 / year, which is very good for a climate with around 5000 DJU.
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 27/12/19, 14:59

Yes 52 I made a typo ... on the other hand I had seen at first approach 150 Kwh / m2 / year at the start of the project.
Anyway there are a lot of changes in this project to achieve this solar coverage, the engineers have played on a lot of parameters to improve yields thanks to the simulation elsewhere.
As far as I know, they touched the water stock at STTS so that there is better stratification, then they touched the heat emitters (management of the heating and adjustment of the emitters) and the arrival loop of water.
They were also able to work on the temperature regulation see on the insulation but I am not sure.
The project was to lead to a much more ambitious DLSC 2, which was more profitable this time because for the moment DLSC is more on an RSI of 40 years without knowing too much the cost of maintaining the equipment and the improvements made.
Most profitable BTES are associated with PACs because there is less drilling for more stock and the yields of stock / destock increases while enormously increasing the yield of solar thermal panels.
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 28/12/19, 21:38

lilian07 wrote:Most profitable BTES .....


Speaking of profitability does not really make sense for this type of project .... I prefer to speak of competitiveness, of "levelized cost of energy", in short of the cost price of the unit of energy returned to the consumer on a period of 20 to 30 years, compatible with the foreseeable duration of the main equipment. It makes it possible to ignore the various subsidies (one reason in cost without worrying to know if any community has put 30 or 40% in the pot "with bleeds") and that makes it possible to ignore the sales tariff.
Were the photovoltaic projects in France in the years 2007/2008, at € 600 / MWh over 20 years, profitable? Certainly yes. Were they competitive? Certainly not.
Be careful, I don't mean to say that this type of somewhat innovative project should not be helped by subsidies or preferential sales rates, but above all, we must not speak of "profitability".
Drake landing will never reimburse what it cost (according to public data). 3.400.000§ of investment (excluding research, ... just building the system) for around 45.000§ / year of turnover (70§ / month and per accommodation). Turnover, not EBITDA, there must be some operating / maintenance costs ....
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 19/01/20, 15:03

Ok for the competitive term, when a storage by drilling is carried out whose return cost is lower than an exchanger by drilling (PAC geothermal water), the system is therefore competitive.
On the other hand as this storage is not the source of heat it is necessary associated with this system of solar thermal panels if the user has no other sources and a heat pump to always be able to exploit the minimum temperature of the stock.
This makes it a complex but highly sustainable and ecological system, much more sustainable and ecological than any other heating system.
It is also necessary to provide insulation + transmitter performing in renovation.
Otherwise there is no exclusion for the building (old, new, collective, residential, neighborhood, city) except the soil conditions and the surface footprint of the stock.
The system is scalable and the stock improves over time. Current summer weather conditions tend to favor this type of system, which is a formidable temperature regulator with an infinite annual cycle without Co2 emission.
Finally the circulation pumps operate at full speed during the maximum sunshine to recharge the stock, the association with some PV is excellent.
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 19/01/20, 17:40

lilian07 wrote:This makes it a complex but highly sustainable and ecological system, much more sustainable and ecological than any other heating system.

Ah but "highly sustainable and ecological" which costs $ 3.400.000 in investment and for which users only contribute up to $ 45000 / year is easy to do! You just have to find out who pays the difference!
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Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 20/01/20, 13:32

which costs $ 3.400.000 in investment and for which users only contribute up to $ 45000 / year


No, this is a unique case of its kind and therefore not a generality which aimed for a solar cover of 95% whereas most BTES in Europe are much more "profitable" and are always coupled with a backup type PAC.
Besides, this is not the case that I am explaining either. The DLSC prototype served to show that an investment of 45 euros and 000 m44 of panels per inhabitant it was possible to do without fossil energy for heating the habitat (2%) which consumes 95 Mwh / year in a country where temperatures are around -10 ° c in winter.

Today, the community of experts is considering a more profitable DL 2.
45 S for heating as durable as the building is not so absurd. A boiler, a geothermal heat pump t is very expensive and consumes much more cost in use. The subsidies have made it possible to weigh the risk taken by engineers on sustainable ones in renewable energies.

This investment is the most virtuous and sustainable there is, no comparison with its competitor said renewable. Everything is local, infinite cycle for heat exchange.
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