Thorium: the future of nuclear power?

Oil, gas, coal, nuclear (PWR, EPR, hot fusion, ITER), gas and coal thermal power plants, cogeneration, tri-generation. Peakoil, depletion, economics, technologies and geopolitical strategies. Prices, pollution, economic and social costs ...
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Christophe » 27/10/21, 14:48

And if you take indirect jobs, multiply by 2 the figure: https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/ ... _3244.html

Fessenheim was 1900 direct and indirect jobs ...

So 10% of the CO2 emissions of the French nuclear kWh come only from the displacement of employees?

I don't really believe it ...
0 x
yves35
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 221
Registration: 27/09/15, 23:22
Location: reindeer
x 60

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by yves35 » 27/10/21, 14:55

Hello,


Christophe, dazed that you are : Cheesy: you have forgotten the retirees, the children of the employees, their neighbors, the traders to whom they go, the employees of the factories who manufacture what they buy, the civil servants who manage the country ...
In short, we always come back to the same thing .... sqinoufodrai, it's a good war

yves
0 x
ignored: obamot, janic, guygadebois... air, air. We are not (yet) on Qanon Ben, if in fact
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Christophe » 27/10/21, 15:25

Ah bin voui you are right ... Suddenly everyone works for EDF in France!

How much do you do the lot? 300 gr / kWh? : Mrgreen:
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by sen-no-sen » 27/10/21, 15:47

bardal wrote:
This is only true for the version currently being tested by the Chinese; the versions studied by the other countries (including France and Europe) practically all include a permanent purification system (of the order of 20 to 40 L per day) which evacuates the various fission products liable to poison the reaction. It is fairly basic chemistry, the gaseous products evacuating themselves at the top of the vessel, and the rest of the “fuel” being subjected to the necessary chemical treatments before being reinjected into the reactor core; the only remaining problem to be solved is that of zirconium (the research track, which remains to be validated, is that of a "cold trap" on the bypass line, allowing the condensation of this metal).


It seems to me that this is the case for the MSFR indeed, but we are still studying, we are still quite far from an operational commercial reactor.
It will probably take 10 to 15 years before seeing one that produces its first MW ...
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
gegyx
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6930
Registration: 21/01/05, 11:59
x 2870

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by gegyx » 27/10/21, 16:39

It seems to me to have seen that macron has definitely abandoned this research in the Thorium sector?


/ A leader who likes to make (shitty) choices
0 x
User avatar
GuyGadeboisTheBack
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 14823
Registration: 10/12/20, 20:52
Location: 04
x 4302

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 27/10/21, 17:27

gegyx wrote:It seems to me to have seen that macron has definitely abandoned this research in the Thorium sector?


/ A leader who likes to make (shitty) choices

According to Izy it's Hulot's fault, LOOOOOOOOOL !!!! The French have never wanted this technology, the model is MILITARY, with us, not civilian.
0 x
Bardal
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 509
Registration: 01/07/16, 10:41
Location: 56 and 45
x 198

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Bardal » 27/10/21, 18:21

Christophe wrote:And if you take indirect jobs, multiply by 2 the figure: https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/ ... _3244.html

Fessenheim was 1900 direct and indirect jobs ...

So 10% of the CO2 emissions of the French nuclear kWh come only from the displacement of employees?

I don't really believe it ...

No, Christophe, your 1000 employees do not all work at the same time, and do not all travel 25 km / day ...

Otherwise, take the number of jobs linked to new energies (according to environmental sources), do the same calculation, and divide by the annual electricity production ... and see what CO2 figure you fall on ... you'll see if it seems consistent. Personally, my figures for wind power are around 10-12 g per kWh; but it will depend on the location, windy or not ...

The figure of 4g per kWh comes from PSI (Swiss university); others say 6g; Personally, I don't care between a hair of the ass and a hair and a half, it does not even deserve a debate ...
1 x
Bardal
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 509
Registration: 01/07/16, 10:41
Location: 56 and 45
x 198

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by Bardal » 27/10/21, 18:27

sen-no-sen wrote:
bardal wrote:
This is only true for the version currently being tested by the Chinese; the versions studied by the other countries (including France and Europe) practically all include a permanent purification system (of the order of 20 to 40 L per day) which evacuates the various fission products liable to poison the reaction. It is fairly basic chemistry, the gaseous products evacuating themselves at the top of the vessel, and the rest of the “fuel” being subjected to the necessary chemical treatments before being reinjected into the reactor core; the only remaining problem to be solved is that of zirconium (the research track, which remains to be validated, is that of a "cold trap" on the bypass line, allowing the condensation of this metal).


It seems to me that this is the case for the MSFR indeed, but we are still studying, we are still quite far from an operational commercial reactor.
It will probably take 10 to 15 years before seeing one that produces its first MW ...


This is the case for almost all of the MSRs, which are functioning (Russia, India, etc.) or not yet (around fifteen projects).

Yes, it will take 10 or 15 years in France to bring out an operational demonstrator (around 2035); all the more reason to start right away. If we had done it in time, instead of cultivating an ego conflict, we would probably be there ...

PS So read the links I sent a little above; it is not luronne literature, but it is instructive.
0 x
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9772
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2638

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by sicetaitsimple » 27/10/21, 19:33

bardal wrote:The figure of 4g per kWh comes from PSI (Swiss university); others say 6g; Personally, I don't care between a hair of the ass and a hair and a half, it does not even deserve a debate ...


Ah, I'm glad there is at least one who remembers that the official unit of nuclear CO2 emissions is the PDC (ass hair) corresponding to 4g / kWh!
This had been discussed at length here: energies-fossil-nuclear / nuclear-and-carbon-emissions-what-in-co2-kwh-digit-pwc-EDF-ADEME-stanford-t15536-110.html
Extract:
So let's summarize the results (after several extensions of the exercise), the unit being the ass hair, PDC, corresponding to 4g / kWh:

- construction: for the EPR 0,5 PDC, 0,25 PDC for the existing fleet
- upstream 0,2PDC
- downstream, with a completely pifometrized (but a priori comfortable) hypothesis of € 150bn for dismantling and waste management, 0,25 PDC
- I forgot the fact that the employees of the power stations go to work by car, that they breathe and therefore emit CO2, and that there are current activities on the power stations .... A fixed price at 0,2PDC should?

0,25 + 0,2 + 0,25 + 0,2 = 0,9PDC, say 1PDC to round.

1PDC is 4g / kWh. Magic, right?
0 x
User avatar
GuyGadeboisTheBack
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 14823
Registration: 10/12/20, 20:52
Location: 04
x 4302

Re: Thorium: the future of nuclear power?




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 28/10/21, 13:40

When the result suits you, you swallow it whole, when it is scandalous in your eyes (even and especially if it is right), you reject it. The problem is that your stupid calculations no longer hold, that they are false, that they are pure propaganda for an outdated, dangerous, dirty and aberrant technology that we overpay.
I am putting back the study because no one has read it, no one has commented on it, everyone is certain of a "prestigious nuclear past that the French have mastered", in short, you are in denial ...
https://wiseinternational.org/sites/def ... uclear.pdf
This is the reality, and not your images of Épinal ...
0 x

Go back to "Fossil energies: oil, gas, coal and nuclear electricity (fission and fusion)"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 302 guests