Hybrid Power Project in the woods (with pre)

[chatelot16]

the batteries are expensive

with the example of 1700 euro for 24V x 400Ah = 9600 Wh

that makes 177 euro / kwh

if we managed to do 1000 cycle before changing the battery it adds 0,17 euro / kWh at the price of electricity! more expensive than the electricity of the edf

that is why lead-acid storage is never profitable when there is access to the network

to do better it would be necessary to be able to recycle the lead is even to put new plates in its battery using eternally the same lead

[Forhorse]

It is a calculation a little simplistic since it would mean that 100% of the energy used is passed by the batteries, except it is normally far from the case since a part goes directly from the panel to the consumer for all consumption diurnal.

However in the mind that's it!
Solar electricity with storage costs still very expensive compared to that of the EDF network. Those who think they can save money by having a stand-alone presence are mistaken.

Now with the increases in the cost of electricity that we are promised; it does not say that a facility of this type will become truly profitable within a few years.
But if I remember a calculation I had on another forum Regarding a fridge it would still be a BIG increase ...

[chatelot16]

my calculation is of course simplistic, but by specifying we find other loss, for example the yield of the kind of 80% for a new battery, and which is highly variable depending on the management of the battery

worse, for a good performance, it is important not to overload the battery, because the end of charge has a poor performance ... but it is essential to load thoroughly for a good life ... look for the best yield by shortening the battery life is bad

it also means that when you do not have a network you have to do everything to consume directly when the source of electricity allows it

for freezer or fridge it is necessary an intelligent thermostat privileging the operation when there is available power without going through the cell battery!

Intelligent washing machines are also needed which can run more slowly at reduced power depending on the power available.

[Did67]

It is quite obvious that storing in batteries is not profitable. Otherwise, why EdF would build twin dams to "pump up water" when there is surplus and trubinate it when there is lack ...

Except of course very special applications!

[Forhorse]

For a freezer, you can actually find a compromise by running it as much as possible during the day when it is sunny, and not running it at all at night. A modern freezer is normally isolated enough to go 12 hours without power (especially if it was in "super" mode just before)
for other devices it is a little more delicate.

But it is true that it is an advantage of isolated sites, it teaches to be economical and to use the energy at best when it is available.

[swallowtail]

Hello everybody

actually as the said forhorse the calculation of Chatelot 16 is a bit fast .....

1000 cycles ????? or barely 3 years of life for a battery park, it's really not good, that's what the "very bad" do in pleasure with their agm or gel packs ...

With a little tracking on opzs (max 50% discharge, regulT °, MPPT 4 steps, T ° low use, monitor batt ....) we normally arrive at 2500 see 4000 cycles is 7 to 12ans
It changes the deal .... 0,17 € / 3 = 0,06 € kw / h

In addition with EDF, we must also add the price of the SUBSCRIPTION at the cost of consumption, and the price of the BT line in the private domain (hard for "isolated" sites) and that of connection ......
It starts to sleep !!!
The last year I was connected to EDF (2008), I paid more for subscription than consumption !!!!!!

Admittedly, autonomy rating, it is necessary to count the price of the installation (PV, converter, regul, monitor, batt) to amortize on 20 / 30ansans ...
but in my case 6000 € / 30ans = 200 € / years ......... it's all seen!

When to increase the price of electricity EDF network ?? , do not worry, they take care of it:
+ 5% at the beginning, and grossomodo 40 60% increase expected on the next 6 ... dixit EDF despite 3,3 billion profit in 2012 !!!!
Find the error
"But it's true that it's an advantage of isolated sites, it teaches you to be economical and to use energy as best as possible when it is available".
Agree with you forhorse:
Electric storage in battery remains expensive, but essential in an isolated site, and to date possibly profitable with a good management, and surely more and more relevant considering the tariff evolution of the energy.

[chatelot16]

yes my calculation is simplistic

the price of energy can only rise

the price of the battery is the current battery price not demountable, not reparable

the advantage of lead acid batteries is that it contains only one metal ... so the lead could be reutilized eternally in the same battery

with demountable battery it will not make 1000 or 4000 cycle but much more

back to the battery type planted with electrical training!

simple pure lead plate it makes a battery of very low capacity when the lead and nine, then each charge the capacity increases a little, until becoming a good battery,

electrolytic formation was considered expensive when it was made in the factory in pure loss of energy

I prepare a system where battery training will participate in energy storage, thanks to an electronic cable controller to operate a battery of various capacity

this system will drastically reduce the price of batteries

the management system will have to load and unload the new battery in order to train them, and for which the number of cycles is useful, it is even useful at the beginning of loading them sometimes at the place sometimes upside down

during this training the battery capacity is low but the output is as good as a normal battery ... so it is both KWH stored usefully and a battery manufacturing work

I hope one day to have this system with the batteries too young in the fixed station, the batteries has full capacity in an electric machine, and the batteries at the end of life returning to the fixed station to serve up before being recycled

[swallowtail]

Hello Chatelot 16

interesting your "training" batteries, can you explain a little more ...
Pure Pb, or Pb / antimony, or Pb / Calcium ™, and some electrochemical equations, please ....
swallowtail

[chatelot16]

the pure lead, it is the best for the efficiency of the battery, alas it is not solid enough mechanically to make modern battery supporting the vibrations in the vehicle

An alloy with a little antimony is therefore preferred, which makes the lead more solid and easier to mold, to make the grid to be filled with chemically treated lead paste to make good battery from the beginning without training.

alas the antimony of the grid tends to pollute the active lead and decreases the yield of the battery: it takes the fault of too much electrolyser the water, so we must often add water: it was the classic battery before the maintenance free

the alloy with antimony was well known to make the print lead character

for some time we have found another alloy to harden the lead without the disadvantage of antimony: calcium: since the batteries do not consume more water unless we overheat really too ... and all the battery even the lowest of the range we have progressed in quality

it remains a defect: the lead paste that fills the grid is not definitely well connected to the grid: when we make work a battery too strong it falls into ruin and the relative capacity decreases

With the battery planted is the surface of the plate that works: the weight ratio capacity of the battery is much lower than a modern battery, but the longevity is exeptionnelle: so it is a good solution for instalation fixed or the weight and volume does not matter much

As the load discharge cycle increases, the chemically trafficked layer increases in thickness, and the battery capacity increases.

I already read in old books of the time that the battery planted had its biggest capacity just before being dead, because alas when the active layer has eaten all the thickness of the lead sheet it falls into ruin

I just did some test with lead sheet for cover: it works but it's too expensive! the price of this lead is more expensive than the price of new batteries

you have to at least buy lead wholesale to get the best price

even better to develop a clean method of recovering old batteries

[tonisebantes]

Hello and thank you for all this info!

I submit here my basic idea for our installation:

6 mono panels 190Wc
MPPT regulator
4 lead batteries open 6V 400Ah
2000W converter

the needs, as a reminder, are 1200Wh / d, on the ground, without shade ... (no tracker)

could you confirm to me if the solution is good on the one hand, and on the other hand give me some additional advice if necessary (regulator / assembly panels / etc ...)?

Thank you !