Are we alone in the Universe?

[Ahmed]

The error is to perceive yourself statically as an outcome, while you have to think in terms of process and the latter is in progress ...

I was not thinking of a (very possible) alien threat, but of the fact that it is very unlikely that contact with an outside "intelligence" is very unlikely to give rise to anything other than a pretext to again. internal conflicts (or rather, an extension of the old ones) ...

[lilian07]

I didn't think of a (very possible) alien threat

I don't think about that either, it's another speculation that you can't possibly lead in a coherent way if it's not the conflict.
In addition to a notorious technical impossibility that after a contact of a signal which would have traveled during centuries it would be necessary to be able to decode then to retransmit data towards another voyage of several centuries. Then this civilization AND must if it is still there, make the decision to come if it can or not visit us for a journey even slower than the signal itself ...
Temporarily impossible thing in this immense universe even if an "advanced" civilization was present on our neighbor of star at 4 light years ... which is highly improbable according to the same Fermi paradox.

Therefore it becomes obvious that primitive forms would not have the means to communicate with us and that a hyper-civilization would avoid coming into direct contact with a too recent civilization.

Ok for the first affirmation a form of biological life cannot communicate but why a technological civilization mastering everything where part of the 4 fundamental forces regulated by the cosmological constants of the universe would not want to communicate or will not have left traces of communications. ...
If a biological form goes technological "in the sense of mastery of physical forces including electromagnetism" it would then necessarily leave in its evolutionary path electromagnetic signals which would flood the universe like the primitive background noise which makes us see what is happening 300 years after the big bang at the time of the decoupling of the fundamental forces which forever rule our universe.
It is in this sense that Whitmire measures the absence of signal by the absence of technological life which for him can not last more than a few centuries according to the adjustments he made with the standard deviations of his statistical curve .

In summary, the duration of a technological civilization is so short that the signal it emits does not last very long on the universe time scale and it also assumes that our earth is commonplace in the universe, it is not an exception and we are a mediocre species (in the average sense) ... which can make it as common and potentially numerous in the universe but the "problem" is that we receive no trace therefore a final deduction which consists in saying that a technological species is doomed to disappear.

On earth, his analysis takes on its full meaning at the moment, which probably makes it a hypothesis of circumstance and therefore certainly may likely ... but it is a track to open or close according to cosmological observations ...

[Ahmed]

Sen-no-sen, you write:

If we escape the gear of the technique (disaster way), we will not escape its technological result, i.e. humanity 2.0, which means that if we stick to the ambient determinism humanity should disappear in all cases ...

You perfectly pose the deterministic alternative: either economic collapse does not allow technologism to free itself from this constraint to which it is currently structurally linked, or it manages to replace the current paradigm in such a way that systemic contradictions are pushed back again and in unprecedented proportions. It would only be to make the situation more catastrophic in the long term: a rapid collapse would leave us more chances of adaptation, but here too, the longer it takes, the more the possibilities diminish, as our psyche s' impoverished (it would be urgent to reverse the current trend: reduce the number of engineers and increase that of poets! ).

Lilian, no need for cosmological examination, the simple oxymoron of "sustainable development" sums up perfectly, insofar as it constitutes a proprietary injunction of its impossibility, therefore the desire to semantically ward off reality: we are not far from dances for rain!

[sen-no-sen]

Ok for the first affirmation a form of biological life cannot communicate but why a technological civilization mastering everything where part of the 4 fundamental forces regulated by the cosmological constants of the universe would not want to communicate or will not have left traces of communications. ...

A hyper-civilization would not want to communicate with us for sociological reasons, indeed the confrontation between two civilizations is something particularly dangerous for the less technologically advanced of the two (the greatest genocide in history, that of the Native Americans we reminder).
Technological mastery of one of its hypothetical ET civilizations necessarily involves understanding physical laws and therefore thermodynamics.
Besides the application of the latter to sociology is without appeal: the sudden introduction of a species, or a new ideology in a given environment leads to an imbalance of the system.
In short, the members of a hyper-civilization would not seek to contact us in order to avoid an unprecedented world disorder.

Regarding the dissipation of electromagnetic waves given the fact that the observable Universe spans about 45 billion light years (!) There is a strong probability that our "neighbors" are located far, very far from us and their signals have not yet reached us ...

Ahmed you write:

(It would be urgent to reverse the current trend: decrease the number of engineers and increase that of poets! ).

The system would quickly transform its last into engineering poets!

[lilian07]

A hyper-civilization would not want to communicate with us for sociological reasons
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Either, if the latter is less advanced than we agree for the sociological reason but admit that we are a young technological society and that it is a safe bet that the most advanced is the others therefore implausible in this case.
In addition our solar system is very young therefore the sociological theory holds in my humble opinion badly.
Finally even if it is a real threat the meeting of 2 civilizations there is not really a sociological brake which prevents this meeting on one side as on the other ... curiosity always takes over ...

the observable universe stretches for about 45 billion light years (!) there is a high probability that our "neighbors" are located far away

To realize the vastness.
http://www.futura-sciences.com/sciences ... vers-3424/

which in my opinion still does not prevent anything from obtaining electromagnetic fluxes from past or recent civilizations .... even if only in our galaxy of a billion stars and whose disc measures 100 light years .. .. modern man (Sapiens) was already on the road to technology 000 years ago.

Really I find it hard to believe that this paradox is ultimately one especially since since the dawn of time man believes to be wrong in the center of the universe or believes to be a species exception which makes the theory of mediocrity more credible than that of anthropocentrism.
But I readily understand that it is above all a track like any other ...

[sen-no-sen]

Either, if the latter is less advanced than we agree for the sociological reason but admit that we are a young technological society and that it is a safe bet that the most advanced is the others therefore implausible in this case.
In addition our solar system is very young therefore the sociological theory holds in my humble opinion badly.
Finally even if it is a real threat the meeting of 2 civilizations there is not really a sociological brake which prevents this meeting on one side as on the other ... curiosity always takes over ...

If it is about a super-civilization they would be quite possible that ET strolls on earth incognito, invisibility being a technology which should be mastered on earth by less than 50, that to say therefore for a company millions of years ahead of us.
On the other hand, such a super civilization would have grasped the risk that it would trigger in the event of contact, thus leaving the curiosity of a sudden appearance.

which in my opinion still does not prevent anything from obtaining electromagnetic fluxes from past or recent civilizations .... even if only in our galaxy of a billion stars and whose disc measures 100 light years .. .. modern man (Sapiens) was already on the road to technology 000 years ago.

If the beginnings of the technique date from more than 100 years it is only since 000 - that is to say yesterday - that invasive technology made its debut, so not much.
As for the observable Universe, it contains about as many stars as grains of sand on all the beaches in the world (!), So nothing predisposes our neighbors to be located in a "close" perimeter ... and who knows maybe there are possibilities of non-technological development?

[lilian07]

therefore nothing predisposes our neighbors to be located in a "close" perimeter ...
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According to the principle of mediocrity yes, our beach, our galaxy of a billion stars is dense and small (100 light years) which predisposes it to have millions of habitable lands .... but nothing tangible, as if in this long evolution of the biological species (always according to the theory which would pass in a certain number of cases to the technological species) the duration of the technological species was insignificant to the point of rendering mastery of the fundamental forces of nature fatal and very very quickly (around 000 years ....).

Maybe finally a biological species passing to the technological species does not have time to evolve genetically to the point of having full consciousness and mastery of force. It is always the instinctive and primitive homo-sapiens (of the same genetics) which plays with nuclear fission and begins to play fusion ... while the latter is competent by itself to run after its living food.

[chatelot16]

if the universe is infinite, infinity is great! and there is bound to be another form of life elsewhere in the infinite ... but the infinite is so great that if there are living beings or civilizations so far that no communication will ever be possible what good know if it exists?

the only thing we really know is that all the planet within reasonable distance to communicate is not inhabited by being able to communicate with our means

there are certainly distant civilizations that we will never know

there may be living beings closer but completely different, living with completely different chemistry at a temperature and a pressure that we can't even imagine

there was one who said: eternity is long especially towards the end ... I say infinity it is far especially towards the edges ...

[lilian07]

the only thing we really know is that all the planet within reasonable distance to communicate is not inhabited by being able to communicate with our means

It can be quite simply that the explanation of the Fermi paradox close to the principle of mediocrity. The average soup of nearby planets inhabited most of the time by biological life but only certain rockers on technological life with the mastery of the forces of the universe. As the universe is immense our close neighbors (radius of 200 to 300 light years) do not harbor a technological life and even if in such a radius the communication would be complex, wait 100 years for an answer after having captured a potential life n is not realistic.

Alpha Centauri which is 4 light years away from our closest solar neighbors would already be difficult to access for communication.

[Ahmed]

Lilian07, you write:

... but only certain changes in technological life with the mastery of the forces of the universe.

It is a very excessive formulation as regards the "control", at least as regards the only one known ...