CO and CO2, heavier or lighter than air? Focusing

Warming and Climate Change: causes, consequences, analysis ... Debate on CO2 and other greenhouse gas.
dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 22/11/11, 13:48

Basic scientific case of thermodynamics which calculates the equilibrium of equilibrium concentration with the effect of gravity !!!! (see osmotic course and others)
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by the middle » 22/11/11, 13:58

basic

Ha good ...
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by dedeleco » 22/11/11, 14:31

Simple basic course (Boltzmann in exp (Energy / kT)):
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9lange_homog%C3%A8ne

In the presence of a gravity field and if the height of the system considered is significant, one can have a stratification: the concentration of the densest gas is greater at the bottom (so-called "heavy" gas), and the concentration of gas the less dense is more important at the top (so-called “light” gas).


Help develop wikipedia !!!
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by Christophe » 22/11/11, 16:31

Good wiki link, but ... no, it's still not clear because ...

The mixture is not always spontaneous or be practically delayed by temperature differences, gravity and other physical effect: in the absence of agitation, a gas can accumulate at ground level or on the contrary in crevices located more in height; gaseous pollutants only diffuse slowly in the atmosphere sometimes ...

In the presence of a gravity field and if the height of the system considered is significant, one can have a stratification: the concentration of the densest gas is greater at the bottom (so-called "heavy" gas), and the concentration of gas the less dense is more important at the top (so-called “light” gas).

This effect can only be seen with differences in altitude of several hundred meters.
Indeed, the kinetic energy of the gas molecules (3 · k · T, where k is the Boltzmann constant and T is the absolute temperature) is much higher than the potential energy of gravity (mi · g · z, where mi is the mass of a molecule, g is the acceleration of gravity and z is the altitude). The gas concentration i Ci (z) follows a Maxwell-Boltzmann law


... would mean that the problem of the concentration of CO2 in the cellars would not exist? Yet it does exist, doesn't it? And hop back to square one without touching the 20 Frs! : Cheesy:
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by chatelot16 » 22/11/11, 17:14

after being mixed CO2 cannot stratify itself in a cellar of some high

there is a layer of CO2 at the bottom only if it was produced at the bottom by a rot or fermentation, is that the flow of CO2 produced is greater than its speed of mixing with air

CO2 could separate from the air in a column a few km high perfectly motionless ... hard to find

separation of gases of different density can also be done with a centrifuge ... there is something like that to make enriched uranium
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by chatelot16 » 22/11/11, 17:24

Did67 wrote:The helium in the air will not finish diluting, dilute ... But there is! As far as I know, it is a rare gas, contained in the air, that is produced by distalliation of the liquid air ... Finally, perhaps, separations in the gas phase today ...


helium is really the rarest gas in the atmosphere: concentration so low that no production of helium by distillation is possible

helium is produced by radioactive decomposition in the center of the earth, and is trapped in methane deposits: all industrial helium is extracted from methane

all the helium that comes out of the ground anywhere or rises and leaves the terrestrial atmosphere: this is why the proportion of helium remains so low
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by Christophe » 22/11/11, 17:53

I found the exchanges (2008) with a certain François T. of whom I spoke above ... extracts ...

Be careful, he's a "restless" (Jancovici had taken the trouble to answer him by arguing the same thing as us above: turbulence)


The attached piece summarizes the conduct of these labs, to fully understand and interpret the physical properties of carbon dioxide. We can draw inspiration from it to study, ozone, chlorine, freon and methane.


Attachment: Image

Dear Sir,
Old chemistry books often had a tech reading page. The one I am attaching to you joins my own experience in the mechanical extraction of CO2 layers from fermentation vats, where it was necessary to "pump" the gas, because blowing on it, even very hard, was not enough. Go explain that to the late and uneducated sixty-eighthuitards of the IPCC

cordially, with my encouragement in your struggle against pseudo-scientific heresies.


I have seen people try, with the wind from powerful blowers, to drive CO2 out of wineries. It is too heavy to fly without falling very quickly. I calculated how much the fermentations produced, and I installed centrifugal aspirators with low flow but good depression. With minimal powers the problem was solved. Heavy gases, beyond a low solubility in air, cannot rise to heaven, and "decant" as shown by the half-lit candle experiment. Again, only experience can confirm the hypothesis. I'd rather discuss it with you than with theoreticians like Jancovici.

Cordialities



Attachment: https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... JRVMcn.pdf

I added a very didactic excerpt to my article on "magical heavy gas levitation". I send you all in "attached part"
I specify that Scientologists are literary scientific followers of Scientology which is not necessarily religious
cordially



Attachment :

THE LEVITATION OF HEAVY GASES

Levitation, in general, is a fantastic phenomenon which makes it possible to get rid of gravity. It is an Indian specialty like the nail board of fakir. Europe, too, has this wonderful genius inherited from its Indo-European ethnic origins. The divinatory sciences have long been gathered in the science of astrology, first divinatory discipline, resting on a poetic relation between the position of the stars and the inevitable future. The temptation was great to give a scientific varnish to these divinatory sciences practiced by our modern astrologers qualified as meteorologists or climatologists. Evil spirits have gone so far as to find a rhyme rich in a single syllable to describe these fantastic disciplines.
To justify this levitation, independent of the density, one uses the currents of convection, the jet-streams in altitude, and the currents of air a little lower. It seems perfectly acceptable that gases, four times heavier than air, levitate to the stratospheric zones, even in the interstellar spaces.

How much do the gases involved generate greenhouse gases

We can make an inventory from the lightest to the heaviest:

HYDROGEN is the lightest, density relative to air of: 0,07
methane: 0,55
Carbon monoxide CO: 0,966

There we arrive at the ideal conditions of mixing and levitation

Nitric oxide NO: 1,036
Nitrogen dioxide NO2: 1,588
Carbon dioxide CO2: 1,52
Ozone O3: 1,66
Sulfur gas SO2: 2,21
Chlorine Cl: 2,45
CCl2F2 freon: 4,42

Let the lightest go up to heaven that is understandable. It is with them that we inflate the balloons, and the weather balloons of meteorologists and other astrologers. But, what do they become in heaven? Since the earth produces it, the atmosphere should be enveloped by it. Nature does things well, because the lightest are powerful reducing agents. So sensitive that they oxidize on contact with air to transform into heavy gases which will return to the ground. There is therefore no risk of them exploding in the upper atmosphere that they will not have time to reach.
So? The heaviest, how will they go up to suspend an ozone layer, more or less perforated, attacked by the "even heavier" that are the chlorine and the freon of our refrigerators and our aerosol cans?
RESPONSE from our "scientists": by convection and air currents, for some, by turbulence, Brownian motion and dilution for others. They did not dare to say "by levitation", but it amounts to the same thing, in more knowledge.

EXPLANATION: it is summed up in a military thought popularized by the media: "to seek to understand is to begin to disobey". To oppose this negationism to official media thought is scandalous: it is the negation of poetry. You have no shame! Men of little faith.

To challenge this levitation is as "politically" incorrect as to deny the miracle of the heat pump.
All our politicians, fantastic monuments of scientific and technical ignorance, sing the same song, "sure of themselves and domineering", armored in the beautiful ignorance that they share with the most qualified of their electorate.
Don't they go so far as to cry over the disappearance of the Pacific corals eaten away by the carbonic acid of which they are nevertheless made up? Do they not see these coral islands submerged by the rising waters dilated and raised by the melting ice cubes of the Arctic Ocean? Too bad that, moreover, new islands appear on the occasion of underwater volcanic eruptions. These are perhaps the famous exceptions that confirm the rule.
So, our President of the Republic, finds the solution, the ultimate solution, the remedy for all evils: a consumption tax: "Thank you, we have already given"

It does not matter. Continue, vote for them ... Amen.


Extract from the book KRIEG GROSS MALHEUR



Generally, the quality of our teachers was indisputable. I especially liked a veteran of the 14/18 War. He had been heavily gassed and, despite his permanent suffering, he worked with acquired military rigor as a reserve captain, in the trenches of Verdun. He was even humiliated by the combat gases. To satisfy a natural need, he had settled in a shell hole filled with chlorine, the density of which ensured the concentration at the bottom of the crater. All his genital outfit had disappeared there. His wife, who taught in my previous class, was a young girl, still young, with a great appetite for sex. So she had a good excuse to collect love affairs. Much later, a doctor who must have tasted her charms told my older brother that after a passionate agape, at a bad time, she was afraid of the possibility of motherhood. So she washed herself copiously and deeply with pure bleach. Any of her little students, to whom she taught the "Objects Lessons", would have advised her against doing so, telling her that the overdose was not necessary. After heavy rinses, things got back to normal, because the chlorine in the bleach was less concentrated than that in the shell hole which deprived her of legitimate love.
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 22/11/11, 18:48

I often observed the level of CO2 in a bucket where there is a fermetation to make alcohol

in the genre, I put my hand in the bucket with a lighted gas lighter, when I lower my hand below the CO2 level the flame does not go down: the gas comes out of the lighter goes up and only burns when it gets above of level

I have never been able to reproduce this phenomenon with CO2 from a bottle: the arrival of CO2 in the bucket is always too brutal and mixes air there, and there is never this precise level visible with the lighter flame

fermentation is the rare case where the production of CO2 is very gentle without any mixing with the air
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by dedeleco » 22/11/11, 19:06

Turbulence is very difficult to avoid because we move too quickly in a few seconds and therefore we have a coarse partial mixture which ends up in mutual diffusion of the molecules D = 20mm2 / t of memory for air (the lighter helium diffuses well faster).
If perfectly calm, the diffusion alone ensures the mixture 4,5mm in 1s 4,5cm in 100s 45cm in 10000s and 4,5m in 1 million seconds or 11 days, which remains quite fast and if the source of CO2 is slow, constant, without turbulence, it remains at ground level the time to diffuse elsewhere on a meter approximately in half a day roughly.
This allows to be suffocated by this CO2 and H2S gas too, released in a sewer for example with very real accidents unfortunately !!
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by chatelot16 » 22/11/11, 20:18

if the CO2 remained at the bottom of the bucket or it ferments like water, the level would rise until it overflows

but no it mixes! the level where I see the flame take off from the lighter and simply the level where there is no longer enough oxygen for the butane to burn: it is not because the flame abuts on a precise level that the air separation CO2 is perfect
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