CO and CO2, heavier or lighter than air? Focusing

Warming and Climate Change: causes, consequences, analysis ... Debate on CO2 and other greenhouse gas.
the middle
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 4075
Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
x 4




by the middle » 21/11/11, 11:25

Anyway it's not the debate ... if?

No, it's for debate.
And when I'm right, I'm right: 30 years of firefighter training! n / A!
: Cheesy:
0 x
Man is by nature a political animal (Aristotle)
the middle
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 4075
Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
x 4




by the middle » 21/11/11, 11:31

Hello, Remondo,
I like your annoying answer, but I would like you to adapt it to my level of studies : Cheesy:
0 x
Man is by nature a political animal (Aristotle)
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79113
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972




by Christophe » 21/11/11, 11:32

And how many years of DJ? : Cheesy: : Cheesy:

Without laughing: you should be, even more than us, aware of the effects, properties and danger of CO2!

Whether CO2 is heavier than air, we agree ... that this reduces its effect on global warming, this is debatable ...

Cf (3rd time I say it) the example of the small greenhouse compared to the large ... which is not less or warmer!
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 21/11/11, 12:19

I like your annoying answer, but I would like you to adapt it to my level of studies

the opposite will be better, improve your level of study by reading and listening to courses on the internet, such as wikipedia (and google), because Remundo is very clear !!
I am constantly improving my level too !!
The turbulence of the atmosphere is enormous and standardizes the CO2 !!

In a room there is 1,2Kg of air per m3 (see wikipedia) and therefore in 12m2 on 2,5m of height there are 12x2,5x1,3 = 36Kg of air and therefore it is necessary to burn (about 29g per mole of air to 1/5 of O2 and 12g / mole of C plus 2 to 3 H = 1 per C, plus a few other atoms) a little less than the 5th by weight of organic matter to remove all oxygen or 6Kg replaced by CO2 and for only 5% of CO2, or 20 times less, (with 20% = 4x5% of starting oxygen) it takes 4 times less or a little more than 1Kg to 1,5Kg of combustible material with C, completely burnt !!!

Also in the intense fires burning a lot, the firefighters take dry suits and bottles to breathe, or breathe at the top of the ground, because the hot CO2, therefore light, and smoke rise up!

The biggest risk is CO and H2 combustible gases, released by pyrolysis, which moreover only want to explode very violently at the slightest turbulent call of air and oxygen when opening the door, which killed firefighters unfortunately and very difficult to predict !!
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79113
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972




by Christophe » 21/11/11, 12:46

dedeleco wrote:In a room there is 1,2Kg of air per m3 (see wikipedia) and therefore in 12m2 on 2,5m of height there are 12x2,5x1,3 = 36Kg of air and therefore it is necessary to burn (about 29g per mole of air to 1/5 of O2 and 12g / mole of C plus 2 to 3 H = 1 per C, plus a few other atoms) a little less than the 5th by weight of organic matter to remove all oxygen or 6Kg replaced by CO2 and for only 5% of CO2, or 20 times less, (with 20% = 4x5% of starting oxygen) it takes 4 times less or a little more than 1Kg to 1,5Kg of combustible material with C, completely burnt !!!


Not clear at all !!! I explain for achiantifics ...

I take your example again:

- 36 kg of air or about 7 kg of O2 (we will consider that% by volume and mass are the same and they are very close I calculated it one day, I believe that we go from 21% vol to 23 % by mass, for orders of magnitude this will be fine, details here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/equation-d ... t4801.html )

- Each kg of O2 that burns gives 44/32 = 1.22 kg of CO2

- The 0.22 kg obviously comes from carbonaceous fuel

- To obtain the 5% deadly CO2, you must therefore have 1.8 kg of CO2 in the room and therefore burn 1.5 kg of O2

- 1.8 - 1.5 = approximately 300 grams of pure carbon will be enough to obtain this rate!

- The mass of the atmosphere will have increased by 0.3 kg

In the end we will therefore have an atmosphere massively composed of:
- 0.8 * 36 = 28.8 kg N2 on 36.3 kg (= slightly less than 80%)
- 7 - 1.5 = 5.5 kg O2 (15% O2)
- 1.8 kg of CO2 (5% of CO2)

For volume% it gets complicated (a little) because we have more than biatomic gases ... and so I leave the rest and end to Remundo :)
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 21/11/11, 13:37

amusing:
Not clear at all !!! I explain for the achiantifics ..

I managed to get Christophe to work seriously, with my thing on the back of an envelope !!!

For the "achiantific" not sure that it is perfect, because there is still a little logical effort to be made and knowledge to be had, which is sometimes difficult for achiantifique !!!!
And the "boring" do not realize this difficulty, by dint of swimming in it, to acquire the basic knowledge to bac plus x = 5 to 10, supposed on wikipedia sometimes !!!
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79113
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972




by Christophe » 21/11/11, 13:53

Pfff did you doubt that I could work seriously (it is level 3ieme of my time there not?) Or what? : Cheesy:

dedeleco wrote:with my thing on the back of an envelope !!!


No kidding? You too? The proof in pictures (it was too good a coincidence that I let pass):

Image

: Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 21/11/11, 14:02

Magnificent !!!
With the work of photography on the internet !!!

Good for humor !!
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 21/11/11, 18:40

To come back to the original question: yes, the atmosphere is all about a calm system, and in this turbulence, CO² and air mix.

The question of the CO² level arises either in a closed space with a source of CO² (the example being the closed jar in which one was able to burn an object) or in shallows under a calm atmosphere (ex: tanks in a cellar where there is fermentation; it is enough to ventilate it to stir air / CO² before entering it).

Finally, simply because of the Brownian movement (agitation of the molecules of a gas), you will not be able to maintain, for example, half of CO² at the bottom of a bottle and half of air above. It will mix. At the atomic scale, the molecules of a gas are the balls during the lottery draw. It jumps in all directions!

Simply, when there is an important source (vat of wine fermenting), this movement is too slow ... Like the smoke from performance halls (the smoke from small decorative fountains is simply made up of very fine water droplets created by a membrane which vibrates very quickly - see "foggers"), facing a large source of CO² (tank which ferments), we can therefore imagine the CO² as "overflowing", flowing towards the lowest places, before being dispel ... (unless it is trapped in a buried tank - very dangerous therefore).
0 x
the middle
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 4075
Registration: 12/01/07, 08:18
x 4




by the middle » 21/11/11, 18:49

Finally, simply because of the Brownian movement (agitation of the molecules of a gas), you will not be able to maintain, for example, half of CO² at the bottom of a bottle and half of air above. It will mix. At the atomic scale, the molecules of a gas are the balls during the lottery draw. It jumps in all directions!

Ha bin here, that I can understand :D
0 x
Man is by nature a political animal (Aristotle)

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Climate Change: CO2, warming, greenhouse effect ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 142 guests