Solar heat storage in the ground

[AXEAU]

Topic of the thermal energy storage in the soil or land resulting from: solar-thermal / store-of-the-thermal-energy-with-from-oil-palm-of-t7421.html

Good evening Christophe,

I do not believe too much in storage of solar energy in the earth with us (in the desert is different) because runoff will cool the buffer ...

Which implies that we must "isolate" the buffer soil from the rest ... Imagine the earthworks?

Yet Canadians have!
Look at the example of Drake Landing
http://www.dlsc.ca/DLSC_Brochure_f.pdf

jlg

[Philippe Schutt]

Christophe panels have no hub, so large volumes of water at low temp.
for encapsulation, I guess you could consider a very long tube? it might even be vented at the ends to allow for expansion.

[dedeleco]

I do not believe too much in storage of solar energy in the earth with us (in the desert is different) because runoff will cool the buffer ...

Which implies that we must "isolate" the buffer soil from the rest ... Imagine the earthworks?

But one can imagine and design a microrobot driller stirring almost no land to drill and pass tubes and 30 or 50mm product injection which seals the periphery (cement or plastic product clogging the pores and cracks, classical civil engineering for large projects) !!
The imagination of such micro robot driller has no fundamental principle preventing it: just assemble and associate that are simple: hammer drill, positioning motors, micro camera or micro robot arm, liquid flow cuttings, micro-controllers, seeking a simple and efficient version.

There are already effective directed drilling means for major project and even for Canadian pit excavation.

The underground storage of heat is a Canadian well for larger a little deeper.

The challenge is huge, possible, totally underestimated by lack of understanding and false prejudices !!
If we put a little of the billions spent for the new EPR, in the development of such a project, which works in Canada, Germany, Switzerland, (variants) without pharaonic investments such as the EPR, it is safe to go out the basic equipment needed cheap !!
So, more need much nuclear power plants for electric heating summer for the winter !!

In France we made gigantic projects, but no research to make cheap and sell in large numbersAs the Japanese and other Asian on many devices like microwave oven cheap deemed impossible in 50 years 1960 as equivalent to a generator for radar 1 / 1000iéme its price at the time !!
Here, it is much less difficult, reduce the price by 10 enough, not by 1000 !!

Consider that the university labs Japanese are very involved in such technical research programs, and much despised in France.

[Christophe]

But one can imagine and design a microrobot driller stirring almost no land to drill and pass tubes and 30 or 50mm product injection which seals the periphery (cement or plastic product clogging the pores and cracks, classical civil engineering for large projects) !!

That was the idea I had behind the head: did you know the cost of such a project? quantities of chemicals to use? And the price of the heat exchanger? With water just a surface exchanger (and to the tank bottom if solar circuit pressure), water convection does the rest for a very large volume ... with the land must each ballayer volume with the exchanger as the bottom the heat pump ground sensor ...

The challenge is huge, possible, totally underestimated by lack of understanding and false prejudices !!

Well, I think above all that this will imply prohibitive costs and an efficiency that remains to be proven ... compared to the ground heat pump which is the "light" and direct version (without sensor) of solar storage in the ground. In summer and at noon, a 1000m² garden ... receives 800 kW of radiation!

Now if you find studies showing that it's interesting, ca interested.

If we put a little of the billions spent for the new EPR, in the development of such a project, which works in Canada, Germany, Switzerland, (variants) without pharaonic investments such as the EPR, it is safe to go out the basic equipment needed cheap !!
So, more need much nuclear power plants for electric heating summer for the winter !!

Of course with so ...

But you know like me that rules the world: profit! And to allow 50 100% of primary energy savings by heating all cheap compared to the price of a house (this is the purpose of such research) it does not interest those seeking profit.

Our house is going to 30 years, the additional cost of such a system is not huge. 15-20 000 € for panels and say 5000 € for the concrete tank and accessories.

It is 10% of a new house at 200 000 € ... so it is not much (roughly the price of a "hard" swimming pool in the garden, there are How many swimming pools for how much thermal buffer? I dare not even think about it). FRIC ON IN THE EXPENDITURE ON A BAD that's all.

Only here is: what is to 15 20 000 € shortfall over the next 10-15 years for oil companies or gas or electric whose state affects an interesting hand ...

The state and the companies that fund such research therefore have little interest in finding and disseminating an inexpensive system to achieve significant savings in heating. So they do not. It's as simple as that!

By cons they finance gladly complex solutions, ultra expensive and therefore inapplicable (eg fuel cells) ... just to show respect to the general public that they are looking forward ...

In the end, since I know our home, given the low cost and simplicity of such a system, I wonder why we do not see more of wholesale simple thermal pads here and there and houses equipped with large amount of thermal solar panels ?

2000 especially since we are trying to paint the world in green (especially in the marketing flyer) ...

[AXEAU]

Bonjour.

For storage in the ground it seems that you have not looked at the link I gave in my previous message.

www.dlsc.ca

It's much simpler than you think.

jlg

[bernardd]

If I had a good look, thank you also for the link.

The principle is simple, but:

- In France, you have permissions to holes 35m, because of the risks on aquifers. We must stay 10m not have paperwork to do;

- it is the drilling of the holes which is very expensive, and it is much less expensive to put hot water reserves in the house, because then the "losses" of heat from a tank constitute a heating of the house.

But if you also have drilling machines references:
- Small (to fit in a garage or garden)
- not expensive
- And fast (because the wages of the operator is the most expensive part of the cost)

then we can try ...

[Christophe]

As we speak exclusively and interesting way of thermal storage in the ground, I just split the 2 subjects.

For storage in the oil phase change: https://www.econologie.com/forums/stocker-de ... t7421.html

For storage in the soil:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-d ... 10173.html

ps: I had not seen the link Canadian I look.

[dedeleco]

If one says that this is impossible, we will never achieve so little whether in France, with lots of very good reasons !!
Some in Canada, Germany, Switzerland did not know that this was impossible and conducted demonstration !!!
http://www.dlsc.ca/how.htm
You have to admire them for having undertaken and follow although human difficulties are great but not fundamental at all scientifically !!
So we see crazy projects despite huge fundamental scientific obstacles, such as ITER fusion !!
Solar thermal with storage for winter summer is the free fusion immediately accessible to all without pollution unlike ITER who pollute, if it works in 50ans !!

15-20 000 € for € 5000 panels and say to the concrete tank and accessories.

In my opinion this is 5000 reverse € if we take the summer not hyper-efficient cheap sensors, single pipe under glass simplistic larger area

In the summer and at noon, a garden ... 1000m² receives 800 kW radiation!

but a pseudo pool 70m3 to € 5000 is unrealistic especially in concrete at the current price !!
Even the price of the foundation excavation.
Even removable plastic you can not do for rainwater !!

Otherwise the cost of current systems of large sites are not optimized to be decreased but the cement is cheap and can cost cheap injected with mere imagination (it takes less than a concrete pool for sealing cracks and pores of the earth !! periphery.
It exists Plenty of places without underground water flow and even limestone region with caves where everything is already dug and waiting to be used !!

with the ground must be scanned each volume with the exchanger as do the pump soil sensors to heat ..

whereas given the heat distribution on most of the meter on for months, simply to have a pipe typically 2m all.
heat pump sensors are undersized in my opinion because they should be as large as the heat transfer system was for winter, as a winter they need exactly the same total heat !!
Scientist I am scared of the number of errors in the heating !!

Finally, I agree with the rest, everything grows never achieve this kind of hyper-ecological system, starting with environmentalists who do not realize that it's possible, despite already demonstrated its viability in some countries more talented than us, with our nuclear disaster that will end with a saw that the men fool not infallible in perpetuity.

Certainly this kind of progress is through uluberlus even fools realize !!!
In Canada they did !! At altitude, colder and less sun !!!
In France, using 1 / 1000 sums for the EPR in this type of project, we did arrive without fail and never fuel, nuclear and wood for heating in winter than the summer sun! !

So now on TV A2 an old 89 years won the jackpot on appeal in justice 190000 € for believing in an armada of advertisements promising to win large checks by spending € 5000 !!
Thus impossible to stop scams on the weaker becomes possible with our changing society !!
For the mediator kills and weakens, impossible to reveal became possible thanks to I Frachon who has not listened to the advice that was impossible !!
http://www.enviro2b.com/2010/10/21/medi ... ou-%C2%BB/
http://www.eugenol.com/sujets/390491-me ... nce-mortel
In his place I would have been too afraid !!

holes spaced 2,25 m
http://www.dlsc.ca/borehole.htm

Borehole Thermal Energy Storage (BTES)

* 144 - 150mm dia x 35m deep boreholes spaced one 2.25m center.
* Single 25mm PEX U-tube with 40mm grout tube.
* High Solids grout - 9% Blast Furnace Cement, Portland cement% 9, 32% fine silica sand, water 50%
* 24 6 strings of boreholes in series.
* Divided into four circuits and distributed through four quadrants so que la loss of Any single string or loop HAS minimal impact on the heat capacity on the Entire system
* All tours start and strings from the center of the BTES and move Toward the outside to maximize stratification.

A borehole thermal energy storage (BTES) system is an underground structure for Storing wide quantities of solar heat in summer file Managed for use later in winter. Basically it is a broad, underground heat exchanger.

A BTES Consists of an array of boreholes drilled wells Resembling standard. After drilling, a plastic pipe with a "U" bend at the bottom is inserted down the borehole. To Provide Good thermal touch with the surrounding soil, the borehole is filled Then with a high thermal conductivity material grouting.

[chatelot16]

the link you showed us are very big thing 100 times bigger than what can make a particular

for we believe there you must make a real integer calculation, a simplified but comprehensive case:

a certain area of ​​ground covered in pipes, defined as the size you want
what energy is sent in the summer?
what energy and what temperature it recovered in winter?

not only give you the length of difusion, this is not the desired result

the result I want is not recuperated heat and sent the first anné but every year, once the equilibrium established diet

so the heat storage is not lost between the summer and winter, but all year round: what was lost even at the end of the winter will be a return in summer

concluded the loss of energy storage in the ground is constant, not limited to a certain time, so your diffusion distance of history are useless, the lost power is the thermal resistance between the storage area and rest of the world x temperature gap

what I fear is that the energy lost by the storage area on the whole year is superior 10fois has the energy to heat the house, so it will take solar panel 100 times bigger than if we had good storage, the sun has beautiful be free panels are not

this proportion between lost and stored energy energy is necessarily vary with the size, bigger is more the stored energy increases with the volume while the lost energy will increase with the surface: it is obvious that beyond a certain size ca become good: but it remains to make a precise calculation to believe that there

I have not given them to do, and as my rule of thumb says that the right size is rather at the scale of a city as a house ...

but if you think you are is you have to finish the math!

[Christophe]

but a pseudo pool 70m3 to € 5000 is unrealistic especially in concrete at the current price !!
Even the price of the foundation excavation.
Even removable plastic you can not do for rainwater !!

Ben must see I say this with a ladle ... it is discussed.

For walls and terracing, this is included in the price of the house: the 5000 € is the casing (Sika products) and interchanges ... but it's true that it costs new hydrostatic exchangers candy.

It could even be conceived renovation ... provided the foundations follow! (Pressure 2 m of water is quite huge compared to a conventional house).

For a good handyman, it does not cost so much more than € 5000. In all cases, a concrete cistern cased, it is cheaper than the steel tank: + isolation + cinderblock sealing.

Currently there are large reserves of rainwater 20 or 30 m3 that could be used.

But as you say: what counts is the sum of the solution ...