company reform: the stronger citizens than banks?

[Obamot]

It is certain that something is happening with China and that it will continue Dedelco. What the Yankees, like many Westerners are unable to do, is to read the news as do the Easterners. Because if they were able to do it, we would not be there today and the crisis in the Middle East probably would not have existed at this breaking point.
I think the goatee game will continue, we will have to assume globalization and see the West lose more of its influence. This is it or one more blackmail by the war ... But where the next time? And when? Under Obama I don't believe it ... So not for two or three years (at least) ....

Obamot, I congratulate you. You went insulting.

... uh, not me, you read again, you keep accusing and insulting ^^ ... running out of arguments?

For others who would like to follow the debate more concretely, I advise them this blog: http://jovanovic.com/blog.htm

... funny, but on the same link that you give: jovanovic.com/blog.htm we find there what I had materialized by the graph of the ASB ^^:





(and then use links from sites that promote books for "author's account", it's always risky ...) ^^
QED: if you put a little order in your words and you stop behaving as you do, maybe we would start to understand you ...
As Bdd says, we may be talking about the same thing (mdr ^^)

[bernardd]

The important thing with banks is to understand the mechanism of money creation through credit.

Do you have any questions about this? Is that clear ?

In this case you will understand that withdrawing money from bank accounts is to decrease the ability to make credit and money: indeed, banks all the same a limit to create credit, they must not exceed 2à or 30 times the sum of the deposits they received.

Which means that by withdrawing my deposit, I withdraw from the bank are entitled to create 20 or 30 times more credit!

Because in the deposit, it is not my currency which interests the bank, it is the credits and the currency which it can create with.

Otherwise, it is indeed a Europe-wide initiative, which is going up without being relayed by the media:
will you support this film?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJvFL5qI ... r_embedded

[FPLM]

Pfff ....................................
Did I insult you? Or? When?
I am not telling you that you are intellectually deficient soft. It is the hospital that does not care about charity.
Not short of arguments but short of patience.
But let's move on, I want to get out of this dead end ...

and then using links from sites that promote books for "author's account", it's always risky ...

Re Pfff ................
Yes, this guy takes the opportunity to advertise his books; yes, it may be venal. And so, is this as far as his tickets are false or false? I want to hear it but with evidence then. Show me the reason to be wary of his tickets other than by the simple fact that he derives a profit from the fruit of his work.
It's the same as when you say there must be an eel under the rocks.
You do not give enough arguments in favor of mistrust compared to the number of arguments justifying this action. And yes, after I get angry! Because you cast doubt on what I believe, for all the reasons developed above, to be a excellent citizens' initiative.

The points on which I want to clarify :

This is completely untrue. It has been a long time since merchant banks have been in the circuit of banks offering services with current accounts for the average citizen (apart from a few exceptions for the big banks which have been supported by the National Banks ...)

On the other hand, all the deposit banks invest on credit and are therefore merchant banks. Whether they invest on credit directly or indirectly, it's the same.
So to say that a massive withdrawal of customers would not turn the tide on the argument that you develop has no tail or head. Sorry to insist but it is so.

You tell me that the economic system is not in ruins because we are not experiencing a depression as dazzling as in 29 and that in addition consumption is going well.
(I invite you to read this article for example: http://lecercle.lesechos.fr/entreprises-marches/finance-marches/221130122/la-faillite-des-etats-ne-jamais-dire-jamais)

The 2007 crisis is a domino effect which was brought down in 2008 by the refinancing of central banks and states. This means that we have aggravated the problem in order to be able to post-pose it. The liquidity crisis is still there and increasingly threatening.
2 °) The consumption index is, today more than yesterday, an indebtedness index not wealth. Since the market is boosted by credits and not by real values, the evolution of global wealth is actually the evolution of global debt. The states went into debt even more (devaluing their currency in the process) to allow the banks to continue their delirium.
"It's time to admit that the financial industry is not just the victim of a speculative real estate panic but is undergoing fundamental changes."
(source: Kenneth Rogoff, "A plan B for central banks?", Les Échos, September 15, 2008)

"There is no crisis" is a catchy and provocative title that had to be taken in the second degree. Well done
Then you have to understand what is developed behind:
There is no crisis that was not initiated by the banks but stifled by their recapitalization via central banks and the states. It is the difference with the interwar period. What we understand today is that the progress made in terms of market regulation is comparable to the evolution of dynamite towards the atomic bomb. The only common point, its inevitable explosion.

By domino effect, there is devaluation of the currency (debt vs GDP), therefore less funds, therefore more credits, ... It is an infernal circle neither the banks, nor the states themselves can stop under penalty of collapse. But this collapse will take place, whatever happens, it is inevitable. You just can't spend more than you have. All the more so if you have less and less to spend.
The sooner the crash happens, the better it will be because we may have some monetary strength left to rebuild our societies.
Finally, concerning your graph (at the heart of our controversy ), if you admit that we are talking about the same thing, you will also admit that it is misleading. In short, this is the growing volume of assets under management which will only exist when they are realized in monetary value, ie "tangible" assets (money, gold, real estate, etc.) .
If this graph is there to prove that there is no crisis because there is massive money circulating then we disagree. In this case, I invite you to learn more about what debt money is.
These goods are currently represented by an investment capacity but not (yet) an existing value. So your graph is in fact the image of world debt (which I demonstrated with the evolution of French debt which, being one of the highly indebted countries, illustrates the same dynamic).
In fact, it is the image of wealth (currencies) that will have to be created so that this "fortune" does not remain fictitious.

Your graph in fact proves the ease with which we manipulate figures and people.
In the end, yes, the banking crisis is a lie; yes, people always consume more (on credit) but that does not mean that wealth increases. It is a deception which will send us all right towards the 3rd world war if we let them do it.
Why? Because when the debt reaches the threshold of no return, the chaos of war will reset all counters to zero. Change of game, change of rules.
We will have other problems on our hands, surviving for example. The banks during this time there, will invest in the armament, will inflate their cases of funds real goods (the war effort deprives (atise) the peasants of their grounds, the taxpayers of their goods, the industries of their productions, .. .). This scenario, on the other hand, is exactly that of the interwar period.
"An attempt to recover the American economy will be initiated by the New Deal and in particular the National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, but a relapse occurs in 1937. It is only with the entry of the United States in the Second World War at the end of 1941 that the country recovered durably. " (source: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krach_de_1929)

Hoping to have been more understandable this time. If we are talking about the same thing (the fictitious debt money), we agree. Otherwise, I count on you to develop your opinion with less pettiness and more courtesy.

[bernardd]

[quote = "fplm"] [/ quote]

Not only do I think you are saying the same thing, except about the efficiency of the massive withdrawal of money from bank accounts.

But in addition you say it in sandwiches impossible to discuss because too long at the same time :-(

I just wanted to say that in a monetary system where the banks create money by making credits to the rest of the population, but monopolize the money, then the enduring wealth by the interests on the credits, there comes obligatorily and mechanically a moment when the people can no longer repay either loans or interest.

I think we're almost there.

And the sooner we shut down the system, the better we are.

The only way to stop the system is to withdraw money from banks.

Because the political leaders created this system and do everything so that it continues as it is: they will never agree to stop it without strong pressure.

[Obamot]

Bernardd: well seen that the proportionality report revealing the need to rely on bank assets! Hi, hihi .. ^^

16% of Swiss who have already changed their "dairy", finally it already has a good leverage at the national level.

If this graph is there to prove that there is no crisis because there is massive money circulating then we disagree.

Yes we are but we are fighting over stories of poems and interpretation right? In fact, to read you this is what we would like us to believe that there is no crisis when it is perpetual. On the other hand, it is the circulation of money and, by that, the creation of non-credit wealth (ie the real economy) which is the only lifeline.
So it would seem reasonable to say - without taking a completely antagonistic position - that the reality is certainly "between the two".
- yes the world of finance is very in crisis. But he "technically" quickly recovered ...
- yes it works almost as if the crash did not take place but that does not prevent the debt crisis (... some have a good game by the way with the stats it is known. .. trust has to come back to rip off "new pigeons in spite of themselves" I published the graph, but you didn't let me say what I thought about it)
- finally yes, the world of finance is walking on eggs, because China is holding the knife by the handle with this currency war and that the slightest systemic or even monetary crisis (or not) could curb consumption ... And that nobody wants! Real economy which is a kind of last rampart ... as I understand it, of the current situation!
- I think China has put an end to its redemption of the American debt, and uses its currency as a means of pressure. Like Germany and some relatively healthy countries in the € uro area which are firm with PIGGS.
Jean-Pierre Béguelin, economist (of the seraglio), also believes that the stock market has recovered ...>

Your graph in fact proves the ease with which we manipulate figures and people.

I had not read the rest, since I answer as I go along, but yes, it is quite possible. The fact remains that it must somewhere correspond to something that "certain circles" can still defend ... it seems more correct than to say that there is nothing behind!

In the end, yes, the banking crisis is a lie; yes, people always consume more (on credit) but that does not mean that wealth increases.

... benwoui, the whole question is there! Question of proportionality between real or virtual consumption, but what exactly is it? And so far anyway, the "suspected panic" has yet to occur. If you want the bottom of my thoughts, unless "certain circles" have an absolute interest in sinking the ship ... Nah, not that ... I think those who are behind these "super specullation circles" are kindly going wait until the whole system is "remade" ... and then yes: it will start again. It will be that OR / AND the war. Perpetual chaos is already here!

In my humble opinion, your scenario will only happen if there is an unforeseeable major crisis (2008 arrived as big as a house). I am not sure that a comparable scenario is currently taking its course, but I could be wrong.

Hoping to have been more understandable this time. If we are talking about the same thing (fictitious debt money), we agree. Otherwise, I count on you to develop your opinion with less pettiness and more courtesy.

Aouch! Clear progress. ^^

[bernardd]

You can make the most complex theories you want, but how do they help you act?

The only way I can act at my level is where I put my money.

The small streams making the big rivers, if there are enough of us to act locally, that will move on a large scale.

[Obamot]

Here is a "simple theory":

[The] nationalization [at liberation] follow one another:
[On] May 29, 1945 to May 17, 1946: By a series of laws, air transport (June 1945), the Banque de France and the four largest French banks (December 2, 1945) follow. After the departure of General de Gaulle, gas and electricity (law of April 8, 1946) and the eleven largest insurance companies (April 25, 1946) are nationalized.
February 23 to June 16, 1948: A third wave of much smaller scale follows.
The nationalization of the banks was carried out quickly, in order to avoid speculative movements. The bill was tabled on Friday evening November 30, after the close of the stock market, to be voted on December 2 and published in the Official Journal the next day..

Radical Would it be applicable? Gigantic brake on the whole system? What about the real economy?
I doubt that companies can do without "credits", so how to rearrange them for them?

The only way I can act at my level is where I put my money.

The small streams making the big rivers, if there are enough of us to act locally, that will move on a large scale.

Indeed, that could be the conclusion of this thread. But give the banking sector as much time to "prepare" makes sure that he has plenty of time to prepare and to take care of the way out. Reason why De Gaulle had acted in barely a weekend! Beside, the promises of the other apple, it's fun ...

[FPLM]

Ok, Obamot. So I had misinterpreted your speech ...
You still scared the hell out of me

I also think that the statization of deposit banks is a way to go, but rather after the destruction of the fascist capitalist. After all, in the 80s (in Belgium anyway), there were still popular deposit banks and state-regulated regional credit organizations.
The problem in this case is difficult to tackle since it is political and the politicians in place are themselves fascist capitalists (in Europe).
In addition, today, wild capitalism is ruled on a world level. So a state doing this would not solve the problem, it would relocate it to a higher level. This is what happened in England.
"... States have extended their personal deposit guarantees and have partially nationalized banking institutions which have failed or are close to being so (in particular in the United Kingdom, where eight banks have been concerned) ..." (source : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crise_financi%C3%A8re_de_2008)
Nevertheless, the English will have to pay for this European and global financial policy on which they depend; like everyone.
Speaking of fascist capitalism, I looked at Mikael Moore's latest documentary on capitalism. It is distressing!
Here is the link : http://www.dailymotion.com/playlist/x19ytp_mmaze_capitalism-a-love-story#videoId=xcqdya

One thing to remember, the fascist capitalists took an enormous risk: to be few to hold the maximum of wealth at the expense of a maximum of impoverished people.
However, history often demonstrates the fatal outcome of this kind of injustice. It is up to citizens to mobilize, even if it means bringing out the guillotine if necessary ...

[bernardd]

Radical Would it be applicable? Gigantic brake on the whole system? What about the real economy?
I doubt that companies can do without "credits", so how to rearrange them for them?

Simply switching to an egalitarian distribution of money creation will not change the money supply. And businesses can get their credits.

Only before, each citizen will have a microcredit which is due to him as a citizen. He will have enough to live on, even if he has decided to exploit an invention, and he will not be forced to ruin himself or sell it in order to be able to develop it in his garage.

And if several want to join, they can create and develop their cooperative, without having to sacrifice their property and their family.

Simply, credits will be made on the money available and actually owned, not on a creation arbitrarily attributed to a few.

The only way I can act at my level is where I put my money.
The small streams making the big rivers, if there are enough of us to act locally, that will move on a large scale.

Indeed, that could be the conclusion of this thread. But give the banking sector as much time to "prepare" makes sure that he has plenty of time to prepare and to take care of the way out.

How to prepare for monetary democracy? There is no escape. Once money creation is distributed, and money growth remains exponential, no "storage" in money can resist: the exponential is more powerful than the scaffold.

[bernardd]

It is up to citizens to mobilize, even if it means bringing out the guillotine if necessary ...

The exponential of distributed money creation is softer but more powerful than the guillotine :-)