The benefits of organic food, questioned

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Woodcutter
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by Woodcutter » 13/08/09, 20:17

C moa wrote:[...] The difference between a red label (as well as a large number of farm chickens) and an organic is almost nonexistent and yet there is a difference in the price.
Is that so ? Could you be more specific STP?

C moa wrote:[...] In the same spirit and to return to our history of labor, when I get my apples from local producers whether they are organic or not, they use the same harvesting methods, their quality are equivalent but not their price.
My example applies to market gardening in particular and I can tell you that it is different between organic and not organic, even if it is a small producer ...

C moa wrote:[...]
Isn't that just a logical evolution of the production of the sector and the "globalization" of the markets?
Maybe but in this case, I consider that it is no longer organic. The initial idea is to have an agriculture reasoned, local, "without external contributions" and respectful of the environment.
I agree with the fact that the "spirit" of organic farming has been led astray in this type of case, but I rather blame it on the mass distribution. It is also partly these reasons that made me completely abandon these courses ...

C moa wrote:[...] What I note, the debate here also proves it a little, is that as soon as one touches on the image of organic, there is a raising of shields.
You just don't have to say anything generalizing, that's all ...: cheese:

C moa wrote:[...]it's like for wind turbines in Brittany !!!
What is the problem with wind turbines in Brittany?
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by Christophe » 13/08/09, 20:26

Woodcutter wrote:What is the problem with wind turbines in Brittany?


Well guess .... the Bretons !! What else? Image
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by C moa » 13/08/09, 21:17

Woodcutter wrote:
C moa wrote:[...] The difference between a red label (as well as a large number of farm chickens) and an organic is almost nonexistent and yet there is a difference in the price.
Is that so ? Could you be more specific STP?
Ben just take the link of Christine, you will see that they are slaughtered at the same age, that they have the same strain, that they generally have the same living conditions, a certification both ...

C moa wrote:[...]it's like for wind turbines in Brittany !!!
What is the problem with wind turbines in Brittany?
Well 80% of French people are for wind turbines ... since it's not at home ... 80% of French people live in cities where there will never be a wind turbine ...
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by Woodcutter » 13/08/09, 21:26

C moa wrote:
Woodcutter wrote:
C moa wrote:[...] The difference between a red label (as well as a large number of farm chickens) and an organic is almost nonexistent and yet there is a difference in the price.
Is that so ? Could you be more specific STP?
Ben just take the link of Christine, you will see that they are slaughtered at the same age, that they have the same strain, that they generally have the same living conditions, a certification both ...
So is that enough to say that the production cost is the same?

C moa wrote:
C moa wrote:[...]it's like for wind turbines in Brittany !!!
What is the problem with wind turbines in Brittany?
Well 80% of French people are for wind turbines ... since it's not at home ... 80% of French people live in cities where there will never be a wind turbine ...
So what ? Where is the problem ?
I live in the countryside, I am for wind turbines and there are 10 km from my home ...
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by Woodcutter » 13/08/09, 21:40

C moa wrote:[...] The difference between a red label (as well as a large number of farm chickens) and an organic is almost nonexistent and yet there is a difference in the price.

As advised, I take again the link of Christine and I see there:

- a difference in the size of the farm (less economy of scale),
- a difference in density (higher building costs),
- a difference in the litter obligation
- a difference for the courses, driven organically. The fact that the course must not be overexploited or trampled must also in my opinion require "tips" (splitting entries, etc. ..) or reducing the density below the mandatory threshold ...
- a difference on food, almost organic, more expensive to buy,
- a difference on veto care (possible losses if problems),
- probably more expensive certification (but it should be verified).

All that to say that there is indeed a VERY CLEAN difference between Label Rouge and Organic ... and that because of this, the price difference does not seem embarrassing to me ... (and anyway, I eat enough meat to ignore this!)
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by C moa » 14/08/09, 11:09

I'm not a specialist, so I looked for some useful links.
http://agriculture.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/nt_vol_homol.pdf the notice of the ministry of agriculture for the red label
http://www.inao.gouv.fr/admin/file_extranet_ie6.php?file_id=1442&code=54f5dd35e288ebec419fac33c96930be and that of INAO for the AB label.

Of course I haven't read everything because I don't have the time and there are bound to be differences because otherwise there is no point in having two labels but hey ...

Woodcutter wrote:As advised, I take again the link of Christine and I see there:

- a difference in the size of the farm (less economy of scale),
There is a big difference in size of the overall livestock because the red label was born roughly 30 to 40 years before organic so they have necessarily had the time to put it in place.
However, your remark is not correct because we can read in the notice of the red label
maximum area of ​​livestock buildings: 1600 m² per farm
while in organic, we can read
the total usable area of ​​poultry buildings for meat poultry of any production unit must not exceed 1 m²,

It's the same size.
- a difference in density (higher building costs),
4400 poultry per building for the red label against 4000 for organic. That makes 10% difference then certainly there is a difference but considering that the buildings are built for several decades, the impact on the price is ridiculous (remains current consumption but good ...)
- a difference in the litter obligation
In the red label we can read
The quantities of straw and other materials forming the litter, as well as their renewal must
allow the litter to be dry and flexible to ensure maximum comfort for poultry.
while in the bio we can read
The sleeping area must be provided with a sufficient dry sleeping area covered with litter. The litter must be made of straw or suitable natural materials.

- a difference for the courses, driven organically. The fact that the course must not be overexploited or trampled must also in my opinion require "tips" (splitting entries, etc. ..) or reducing the density below the mandatory threshold ...
In the red label we can read:
6.6.3 Course
E25 Access to the course (or to the aviary if necessary) is compulsory for all poultry under label.
It is reserved for poultry during the rearing period on the course.
E26 The course must be covered for the most part with vegetation, in particular with natural facilities that encourage poultry to leave and stay outside the buildings. (for example: trees, shrubs, windbreak hedges, presence of feeders outside, presence of drinkers with "Label Rouge" poultry technical notice - 2006 26/103 outside…). The specifications must specify the organization of the route, notably specifying the natural amenities: trees, shrubs, etc.
No crop protection treatment should take place on the course during the poultry exit period.
E27 The courses are rotated with a minimum rest of 7 weeks, except for the quail where the rest must be at least 6 weeks.
The criteria below to be respected are defined in the species sheets:
􀂃 Minimum area of ​​the course;
􀂃 Maximum age of access to the route.
E28 To be entitled to the designation "raised in freedom", the route is unlimited. During the period when animals are out on the course, this is exclusively reserved for poultry, over a minimum area of ​​4 m² per subject adjoining the buildings.
In bio, it is less precise (in any case I have not found) and we can read:
Outdoor spaces, outdoor exercise areas or outdoor courses must, if necessary, offer, depending on local weather conditions and the breed concerned, sufficient protection against rain, wind, sun and extreme temperatures .
We saw in addition that for the red label, they were entitled to 11 chickens maximum per m² while the organic requires 10 chickens maximum.
- a difference on food, almost organic, more expensive to buy,
ok but i have no data on the cost difference.
- a difference on veto care (possible losses if problems),
In the red label we can read:
the animal health program is transmitted to the Veterinary Services. Interventions planned to keep poultry in good health must be limited to what is strictly necessary.
6.6.4.2 Treatments
I10 They are limited to the interventions strictly necessary to restore the subjects' good health.
All treatment is carried out under veterinary supervision. The order must include the waiting period to be observed and must be kept by the breeder in the breeding register for 5 years. If the waiting period exceeds the remaining breeding period until the scheduled slaughter date, this must be postponed accordingly.
E29 During the last 10 days before slaughter, no treatment subject to veterinary prescription may be distributed to poultry.
The quality group determines under its responsibility the destination of the lot after healing.

For organic, I was very surprised (and you will surely be) because contrary to what is said everywhere,
5.9.1 In order to ensure optimal safety with regard to the consumer and the environment, the following provisions must be observed:
· Use of allopathic medicines provided that their active ingredients are listed for the species concerned, in one of the first three annexes to Community Regulation LMR No. 2377/90 as amended.
Use of these synthetic chemical allopathic veterinary drugs or antibiotics only
curative title and in pharmaceutical forms excluding controlled release devices.
So in organic products, they don't just use "natural" products. They should not a priori have more losses than in red label farms. In the latter, I find that they are however much more precise as regards the traceability and the future of the animal.
- probably more expensive certification (but it should be verified).
It is to be verified effectively, but if it is like in the industry, it is generally the same organizations (and often the same certifiers) which certify the different "labels" (they themselves have been evaluated on them of course) . I would be very surprised if there were big price differences. For information, in the industry, certification based on known standards (ISO 9001, 14001, MASE, UIC ...) is 1000 to 1200 € / audit day. The number of days depends on the size of the company, but it is rarely less than 2 days.

All that to say that there is indeed a VERY CLEAN difference between Label Rouge and Organic ... and that because of this, the price difference does not seem embarrassing to me ... (and anyway, I eat enough meat to ignore this!)
I maintain what I said before, these differences are not from my point of view that clear.

Let’s get on well, I’m not saying that organic is not serious, I’m just saying that:
1- There are also serious people outside of organic farming who have very good products to sell;
2- That I did not have the demonstration (it was true on the fruits and vegetables of my corner, it is true today with the chickens) that the additional cost of organic was justified compared to these other products of quality (I drive the point home: compare what is comparable);
3- That the spirit of organic has sometimes been misguided and that ecological disasters are underway in the name of this fashion when this sector should be exemplary.
4- The sector (at national and European level) should educate consumers and help them to sort out what is really organic and what looks like it. To take the example of the Dead Sea, Israeli or Jordanian products arriving in Europe do not have the AB label I think (or so I don't understand anything anymore).

On this good day to all, the most important being to eat healthy and local ...
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by Christine » 14/08/09, 11:53

C moa wrote:Christine, I like you, but there "you are crossing the line ..."


Small development:

1) I'm not asking you to love me

2) this figure of speech is useless ....

3) my intervention was nothing personal and was not an attack against you but obviously you do not support that we nuance your assertions

4) in fact "insult to intellectual honesty", I find that it is rather you who is insulting by systematically repeating what others say when they are not 100% identical to yours.
It is "insulting our intellectual honesty" to pretend not to see that lumberjack and I are "grosso merdo as you say" in agreement with you. I just don't think that's a reason to complain about all the bio, simply because there are drifts (and it is normal that there are). It is more constructive to support the effort to improve the situation than to be grumpy. If you find organic too expensive for your purse, well don't buy it. If you think it has come too far, don't buy it. If you find that Israel or others are abusing the vein, do not buy their products. That's all, it's simple and there is nothing wrong with us.
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by Christophe » 14/08/09, 11:55

I did not follow everything but I believe I have an explanation in points 3) and 4): c moa is an engineer! So excuse him!

I remind you that you have a similar model at home! I'm not going to make you a drawing, I'm already doing a design for you! : Cheesy: : Cheesy:
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by Christine » 14/08/09, 12:18

Christophe wrote:I did not follow everything but I believe I have an explanation in points 3) and 4): c moa is an engineer! So excuse him!

I remind you that you have a similar model at home! I'm not going to make you a drawing, I'm already doing a design for you! : Cheesy: : Cheesy:


pfff : roll:

And you are well placed to know that I am perfectly aware that my intervention has no chance of being understood and that instead of respecting my intervention as a simple point of view which is divergent from his and which has as much right to exist as his, he will use each of my words to prove to me that I am wrong and that he has THE truth.

So what ?
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by Christophe » 14/08/09, 12:21

Certainly, but is this really the debate there?
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