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Janic
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by Janic » 20/11/13, 11:31

Hello sherkanner
Janic's point is typical of those who are vegetarians / vegans for a long time and who become extremist borderline because vegetarianism is above all a question of moral choice, but has however no scientific basis or justification.

It is interesting to read such a statement which indicates a definite lack of information.
So :
a) the VG like everything outside the norm (as little as it is!) is necessarily extremist. Anyone who trains for the Olympic Games will seem extremist in the eyes of the Sunday jogger. Where is the border (scientifically)?
A diet where you have to use supplements to have a normal life is not a good diet.

b) another half-wrong idea. Actually living on supplementation is that there is something wrong with these choices. I never take it, nor my relatives and I grumble against this mode of doing often without justifications (whatever in those who are VG with industrial products, it is perhaps more careful). So there are different forms of VG (as there are lots of different carnists). Some are for ecological reasons, others for health reasons, others for sentimentality and often a mixture of everything. On the philosophical and dietetic level, the use of supplements is only necessary to make up for the deficits acquired during viandism (I speak here of those who come to the VG for health reasons), these supplements being intended to disappear in the short or medium term depending on the work of normal restoration of physiological functions (like a patient who will take medication until the pathology disappears, but some will remain on drugs until their death depending on what they have).
Plant proteins are very difficult for humans to ingest.

c) Ingestible or assimilable? What is vegetable protein first? A set of amino acids exactly as in meat products, but in different doses depending on each product as there are differences between pork, horse, beef or rabbit, or between cabbage carrots or apples.
d)
Second, feeding exclusively on seeds will not feed the planet, contrary to what they want to give us, it is above all the industrial lobbying of grain producers. Cereals are produced with a great deal of pesticides and fertilizers but do not prevent soil depletion.

Who is talking about feeding the planet with grains? The variety of plants available for human consumption is wide and not limited to seeds and especially not industrial cereals selected for their yield, their resistance to diseases, but never for their nutritional qualities. Hence food intolerances including those with gluten!
e)
If the use of fertilizers is necessary, it is precisely to offset this impoverishment. (yes, recently I have been anti-seed, given the state in which they put me).

You are, oh how much, right! Poor quality food cannot lead to good health, so avoid this… shit, as Coffe said!

f)
Man did not evolve to eat only vegetables and fruits. If we need vitamins and minerals (called essential) it is because our ancestors easily found them around them. I'm talking about the pre-agriculture period.

The particular point is that these vitamins and minerals are mainly found in plants and better assimilated than in meats which are only transformed vegetation.
So another commonplace physiologically and paleontologically inaccurate. The dentition of human fossils is identical to ours today and the anatomy makes it possible to classify food by individuals according to these criteria including the jaw and the teeth and we are still adapted to vegetable consumption and still not animal (but if you have references scientists who show the opposite I am a taker!)
g)
Cereals were only used during periods of famine (winters), and were certainly prepared in the same way as they are still used today in Africa (soaking, fermentation in order to limit the action of anti-nutrients that 'they contain).

It still remains true today, but plants are not limited to cereals again.

h)
Man is omnivorous and is known to be a hunter-gatherer. Basically everything he could hunt, and find to carry, he ate, mainly believed and this during most of our evolution (this includes insects which are still too often left out).
Numerous studies show this (be careful, it is often necessary to re-read the studies in full to see if the conclusion is indeed correct and not oriented as is often the case).

There too, there is confusion between anatomy and adaptation to the environment. Humans are not physiologically omnivorous, they consume what can ensure their survival (like the Cuicui Inuit), whether plant or animal. However, in the so-called evolutionary cycle, before becoming a hunter (which means the acquisition of tools, hunting methods, etc.), we had to survive until then without these technical means: how did he do it? Would it run faster than its prey like real carnivores? Did he savagely bite the thighs of brontozaures and other "critters"? Here again, we confuse adaptation to the environment (some humans have eaten other humans without establishing that humans are anthropophagous) and biological constitution.
I am lucky to have a demeter garden 200m from my home, I buy most of my vegetables there, it is certainly expensive, but it is worth it.
The same goes for animal protein. I found there are few producers who raise their cattle only in meadows, on grass (fodder in winters), their poultry run free outside, and are not stuffed with antibiotics, pigs freely bask around their water point. Certainly it is a little more expensive (although some parts of the animal are at the same price as those of battery farming)

Organic farming should not be confused with biologically compliant food. Organic marijuana would not be good for health either, nor biologically assimilable. The AB's mission is to eliminate chemicals and ensure better health of its products. Then that these are, intrinsically, favorable to human health (but it is already better) it is another aspect; Do not mix everything up !
I tried to reduce my animal proteins by replacing them with vegetable proteins, all that that accomplished and gaining fat, and this in spite of my efforts to lose weight. I also felt bloated, and in bad shape.

Dietetics (adapted to health) does not consist of an approximate tinkering where we add and subtract haphazardly the luck and the weight gain, in fat, underlines a deficient metabolism, requiring perhaps a basic work, to "Set the record straight"

Just like the vegetarians / links, I made a moral commitment:
My moral commitment is to eat foods that are closer to what nature is capable of producing, and this by being just guided by the hand of man, and not forced as is the case with production food industry (I do not touch GMOs, everything that is processed is banned, sugar is almost non-existent).

It’s already here and it’s a lot, it remains to be seen whether you are happy with it or want to go further.
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by amanda35 » 20/11/13, 14:08

Cuicui wrote:farmers complain of overproduction which prevents them from selling their products, while France continues to import organic products. A business leader worthy of the name adapts to customer needs, right?


I fully agree with this reflection which, in my opinion, is a matter of common sense. When are we going to wake up?
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by Rabbit » 20/11/13, 14:40

the VG like everything outside the norm (as little as it is!) is necessarily extremist.


Everything is said. Take a good steak and stop the salad. It makes you aggressive.
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sen-no-sen
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by sen-no-sen » 20/11/13, 16:05

Rabbit wrote:
the VG like everything outside the norm (as little as it is!) is necessarily extremist.


Everything is said. Take a good steak and stop the salad. It makes you aggressive.


A rabbit who advocates the benefits of meat eating, a shame! : Lol:
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by Janic » 20/11/13, 17:04

A rabbit who advocates the benefits of meat eating, a shame!
it is well known that rabbits are carnivores when they eat maggots (if not pigs) in their carrots and dandelions.
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by Rabbit » 20/11/13, 17:07

This is proof that genetics is not everything. Influence
from the middle counts.
Before I ate carrots, but it was before .... : Mrgreen:
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by Janic » 20/11/13, 17:17

This is proof that genetics is not everything. The influence of the environment counts.

Undoubtedly, but the rabbits in the middle of the carnivores do not have time to prove that genetics could make them grow fangs, salad or not, and especially not by eating steaks. : Cheesy:
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Cuicui
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by Cuicui » 20/11/13, 17:59

sen-no-sen wrote:
Cuicui wrote:(...) is not it best to live as well as possible with the least possible nuisance, and to take better care of humans by helping them to avoid or evacuate the suffering, especially psychic, which pushes them to greed and cruelty?

Fully agree!
But imagine that the concept of suffering has been posed for over 3000 years and has led to Jainism and Buddhism, a doctrine that leads to ... vegetarianism!
The human being, as an animal with the highest degree of intelligence (yes yes!) Has the duty to limit as much as possible the suffering that it can cause, and what better than to "become" vegetarian again?
As a reminder of our origins, humans are animals from a primate line, not felines or canines ... Primates are not originally meat-consuming animals, only by the control of the fire that we were able to consume in significant quantities, the cooking acting as a pre-digestion in a way.
Homo-sapiens is clearly an omnivorous animal with a vegetarian tendency, this evolution is probably made by the Baldwin effect (ie natural selection via a cultural modification).
That said, and going back to our time, it is completely absurd to want to compare the traditional way of life of the Inuit, for example, with an average American!
It is clear that in many regions of the world, meat food is the only source allowing access to the necessary nutrients, but again: do we all live around the Arctic Circle or in the Siberian taiga? I do not think so...
The question is therefore not to oppose vegetarianism and meat diet but to conclude by saying that technically speaking, it is hardly possible to export the current model to the rest of the world.
In the very near future there will be a choice between eating vegetarian and consuming GMO meat, because we will have no other solution ...
Small remarks in passing:
- The day the octopuses survive the birth of their young, it is difficult to know the limit of their intelligence.
- Chimpanzees organize group hunts to catch and devour raw monkeys.
- An unstoppable way of eliminating GMO meat: stop buying it. Producers will adapt very quickly.
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by Janic » 20/11/13, 18:55

Chimpanzees organize group hunts to catch and devour raw monkeys.

It is a reality that requires analysis because the question is whether it is for food reasons of survival or, like certain human tribes, a way of establishing its domination over territories where various monkeys compete because, of memory in a documentary, this predation occurs only at one time of the year. (to check!)
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by sen-no-sen » 20/11/13, 19:05

Cuicui wrote:Small remarks in passing:
- The day the octopuses survive the birth of their young, it is difficult to know the limit of their intelligence.
.


Cephalopods are indeed very intelligent, nevertheless their animals have a significant brake on increasing their cognitive capacities: on the one hand, they are solitary animals, which excludes the appearance of a "collective brain" by mutual learning. , on the other hand, their brains are not able to memorize more than a few days of information learned during a new experience.



- Chimpanzees organize group hunts to catch and devour raw monkeys.


This is apparently relatively recent behavior in chimpanzees (geologically speaking).
Contrary to octopuses, chimpanzees have the capacity to learn from their other congeners and to record information to transmit it to the following generations.
It is not impossible that (if the species does not disappear by then!) Within a few hundred thousand years the chimpanzees give birth to new forms of animals even more intelligent (hominization?).
There have also been cultural developments in many birds (chickadee, raven).


- An unstoppable way of eliminating GMO meat: stop buying it. Producers will adapt very quickly.


If producers ever produce GM meat, it's because there will be market demand ... and therefore consumers.
Reminder: almost 80% of the cattle are fed with GMOs, it does not seem to influence badly the sales of meat products!
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