Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?

Books, television programs, films, magazines or music to share, counselor to discover ... Talk to news affecting in any way the econology, environment, energy, society, consumption (new laws or standards) ...
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12307
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2968

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Ahmed » 02/09/18, 19:01

@ Remundo
There are several ways to approach an answer to your last message. A historical look would perhaps be the most appropriate, but I would limit myself to the logical, simpler and to stay in the angle within which you approached the subject. We must carefully distinguish between the means and the end; the latter, as you explain it, is of a financial nature, the accumulation of abstract value, and the means are the economic agents, that they actually act individually to derive comfort or prestige (this is not the same thing!) or that they are obliged (in the case of the great majority, but that varies according to the time) by others who draw the chestnuts from the fire. With this reservation, we can admit a non-incompatibility, but we must keep in mind the distinction to be made between what is knowingly aimed at and what is the real result.

À Did
In your African example, it is not, in my opinion, capitalism, but rather a punctual rent. However, we find ourselves at the margins of the phenomenon, because there must already be a society structured by the commodity (money is not an indispensable condition) for such behavior to be observed. I have a counter-example in Madagascar, where during the flood of a small village, a woman was able to save a good amount of rice: she then shared with the rest of the inhabitants. It was more important for her to contribute to the survival of the group by restricting herself to the common portion: the interpersonal link prevailed over commodity mediation, as we know it.

Then you go on to two essential aspects. Of course capitalism is a human creation, but by a functional reversal, it then manifests itself as an autonomous entity on which men would have no hold and which conditions their behavior. It is capital that becomes the subject and the men who are at its service. I willingly concede that this is rather unintuitive in its abstraction and that is why many critics target agents specifically designated as responsible (the Jews, the banksters ...) thus making an understandable mistake, but very unfortunate.
You write:
... in the example above, I'm not sure at all that the poor borrower to survive would do differently if he were the one with stocks!

Note very relevant and agree with my point above: capitalism is above all impersonal (since it is historically replaced by links based on the uniqueness of personal relationships or within the social group, the brotherhood .. .) and there is no more essence of the rich than of the poor, it is a question in both cases of only roles within the system, roles whose distribution is indifferent.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Did67 » 03/09/18, 09:45

Little relation to the subject of the thread, but to clarify it interests me a lot ...

Because after what you write, the question inevitably arises: "what to do?"

And by scratching just a little: entryism (participating in a very questionable system in the hope of making it less worse) or "revolution" (cutting it down to replace it, at least on paper, by a "flawless system" - a utopia). You know my position.

Just to say that if capitalism is a human construction then destroying capitalism is destroying / changing man ??? While for the majority of "revolutionaries", it's just slaughtering "the bad guys" (capitalists, traiders, bosses, Jews if you want ...). Themselves, since we are against the wicked, we declare ourselves good. We dispense with looking at our own actions with the same acuteness ... No wonder that when we come to power, in general, things turn out to be the worst, since by definition we are the "good guys" - and contesting it deserves a gulag , we use the weapons of the bad guys without blinking).

It can take us far!
1 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Janic » 03/09/18, 09:57

One of my children, still small, once asked me this question: "what is a communist and a capitalist? " to which I replied: "a capitalist is a communist who has a lot of money and a communist is a capitalist who does not" : Cheesy:
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12307
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2968

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Ahmed » 03/09/18, 11:06

Did, you write:
... then destroy capitalism is to destroy / change the man ???

It would only amount to destroying / changing the man already destroyed / changed by capitalism ... To turn this objection, the capitalists of capitalism argue, against all historical reality, that it would be an integral part of the human essence.
Regarding utopias, you know my opinion on this point, which does not differ from yours ... :D

Janicyou summarize in a funny way which explains the bankruptcy of the left (well, not all aspects, anyway!). We must go out of this aporia (impasse) and see things differently. I know that many are tempted by activism (in the sense of bougism), but an agitation for mere taste of the action reflects only the usual meaning and remains vain without a solid prior analysis; do you think it is possible to build an Airbus just by adding parts to others, without overview and as inspiration?
This is also why the failure of N. HulotGood feelings are only of little use if they are not correlated with a lucid appreciation of one's own contradictions and a fair appreciation of the balance of power.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
User avatar
Remundo
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 16126
Registration: 15/10/07, 16:05
Location: Clermont Ferrand
x 5241

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Remundo » 03/09/18, 12:49

Janic wrote:One of my children, still small, once asked me this question: "what is a communist and a capitalist? " to which I replied: "a capitalist is a communist who has a lot of money and a communist is a capitalist who does not" : Cheesy:

capitalism is the exploitation of man by man, communism? It's the opposite !! : Mrgreen:
0 x
Image
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Janic » 03/09/18, 17:40

capitalism is the exploitation of man by man, communism? It's the opposite !!
: Cheesy:
It's funny, if we reverse the sentence, it gives the same thing "communism is the exploitation of man by man, capitalism? It's the opposite ! : Cheesy: : Cheesy: at most can we replace by by for!!!
1 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
izentrop
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 13698
Registration: 17/03/14, 23:42
Location: picardie
x 1516
Contact :

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by izentrop » 03/09/18, 18:37

Ahmed wrote:This is also the reason for N. Hulot's failure: good feelings are of little use if they are not correlated with a lucid appreciation of one's own contradictions and a fair appreciation of the balance of power.
Above all, there was far too much utopia in his program. A Jancovici has a much more realistic view of the situation, but Macron needs above all a manipulable puppet. Cohn Bendit has understood this and prefers to keep his place in the European Parliament where his word is heard.
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Did67 » 03/09/18, 19:02

Cohn Bendit is retired from politics ... He did not represent himself in 2014, voluntarily. He is interested in football!
0 x
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12307
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2968

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by Ahmed » 03/09/18, 19:09

It is true that it was really difficult to be more "realistic" than Cohn Bendit and his comments made all the more consensus that they were anything but disturbing ... : Lol:

As for your quote, it should all the same be specified that if this amusing opposition between the two supposedly opposed ideologies works, it is because they are two competing forms of capitalism: one said liberal and the other of state; the second can be explained as a temporary form of catch-up capitalism * (vis-à-vis the first). Soviet "communism" is therefore qualified as real socialism, which only means that it has historically been embodied in a particular version.

* These modalities are not specific to "socialist" countries: liberal societies follow this pattern in crisis phases (Cf the New deal in the USA with Roosevelt or the various planisms in Europe after the Second World War.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749

Re: Hulot, Minister at 100 Liters on time?




by sen-no-sen » 03/09/18, 21:52

Ahmed wrote:As for your quote, it should all the same be specified that if this amusing opposition between the two supposedly opposed ideologies works, it is because they are two competing forms of capitalism: one said liberal and the other of state; the second can be explained as a temporary form of catch-up capitalism * (vis-à-vis the first). Soviet "communism" is therefore qualified as real socialism, which only means that it has historically been embodied in a particular version.


To rephrase otherwise we can say that capitalism et Communism are two branches of Exponential economism Capitalism is developed within an industrial society whereas communism is a temporary success within a semi-colonial and semi-feudal society.
In the first case it is a form of progressive evolution in the other of a disruptive evolution.
The apparent dichotomy between his two ideologies is only apparent and aims to generate powerful retro-actions that accelerate the finality of the process.
Once completed the process becomes standardized to give mega-structure on a global scale (super anthropotechnical organization).
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Media & News: TV shows, reports, books, news ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 172 guests