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by sen-no-sen » 29/01/16, 21:07

It is Bertrand Meheust it seems to me?
I know him especially for his work on parapsychology (paranormal history of the Titanic).

One of the big problems of our species is seems to me its innate tendency to subjectivism.
The "crises" that we are going through are to be put in direct relation with subjectivism.
Most of the past ideologies (religion, political ideology) are all animated by this need for subjectivation.
The current system does not escape this trend, except that it has managed to add to this all the efficiency, this time very objective, of technology.
The Second World War, for example (and among others!) Is a direct consequence of this "complementary dichotomy" (forgive the oxymoron!).

One avenue for a paradigm shift therefore lies in the search for an objective model.
At present, the philosophical models in place (of trader de wall street to the Daesh terrorist) are the same and have hardly changed since the 19th century ... this vision is partly responsible for current issues.
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by Ahmed » 29/01/16, 21:12

Confused I am! It's such a big shell that it escaped me ...

Could you develop this possibility of objective models?
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by sen-no-sen » 29/01/16, 22:36

Ahmed wrote:Could you develop this possibility of objective models?


Well it's simple ... not in fact it's very hard ... :P

The company is driven by a set of models, ideologies, religions, we speak of framework.

If the traditions, beliefs and more generally the culture changes from one country to another, there remains one thing that remains universal:our perception of reality.
This is not institutional, it develops in us through our daily experience via our senses.

Besides this perception of reality, it completely configures our mind, and determines our lifestyles, and by extension society and my ideas that it dissipates.

The different types of ideologies that have raged through the ages are all polluted by the notion of subjectivism, this one led to frightful dramas that it is no longer necessary to remember as they are legions ...

Even dialectical materialism supposed to provide an objective reading grid on the world (according to the Marxists) has not escaped the reverie of communism and its terrible consequences, that is to say!

This tendency to fall asleep is a consequence of our behavior, the man in the street spends most of his time in a kind of half-dream / half-wake, this phenomenon being more particularly increased since the development of multimedia , is it a leak in the imagination to absorb the pain of reality?

If all of the ideologies end up falling sooner or later into subjectivation it is for a simple reason:it is the only way they have not to disappear.

So economism has no other way than to promise infinite growth and to flood the world with useless gadgets in order to "to persevere in one's being", it is besides what makes its force compared to the other ideologies.
Without stratagem it would disappear.
Lenin said: communism is in 10 years ...Stalin said communism it's in 20 years ...Khrushchev had to admit that communism was not tomorrow the day before ...

Fascism also followed this logic through the invention of myth and by an overflowing romanticism, we find the same logic among terrorists and current political figure ...
In short, subjectivisation is a reconfiguration process aimed at ensuring the survival of a system on the verge of collapse.


After this prerequisite, and to try to answer your question, I would say that the first of the things to accomplish to establish an objective model and to approach reality, to understand our reality and to follow its mechanisms.
H. Laborit et F.Roddier have thus developed very objective explanatory grids, remains to refine this one and design other more precise grids.

It is also necessary to question our obsolete philosophical models which however fully configure the choices of each other.
As a reminder: determinism,the materialism,the realism and presentism that shape our worldview.
His philosophical conception is now wrong, it is a fact, but yet not questioned, except without questioning, I do not see how humanity could reinvent anything again in view of the cyclical trends of our behavior ...
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by Ahmed » 30/01/16, 10:51

Ah! Do you mean that once and for all it would be necessary to become aware of the determinisms that are within us, in order to finally be able to take control?
I did not understand that it was quite simply (?) What you meant under the terms of subjectivism and objectivism!

Well, it is not won in advance, indeed. You even have one, on this forum, who wishes in the name of a claimed, but very oriented hyper-objectivism, to accelerate and accentuate this submission to determinisms, to free us from nature!
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by Janic » 30/01/16, 11:13

sen no sen
, I would say that the first of the things to accomplish to establish an objective model and to approach reality, to understand our reality and to follow its mechanisms.
H.Laborit and F. Roddier have thus developed very objective explanatory grids, it remains to refine this one and design other more precise grids.
This seems difficult because of the very fact that subjectivity is the rule and that an objective grid would imply neutrality perfect, which humanly is a challenge. We are what our environment has formed, conditioned us (more or less accepted or rejected) and only neutral machines (and again it is we who program them) could come close.
However, any grid, any list proceeds by interpretation of the parameters retained and those neglected or rejected a priori.
It is also necessary to question our obsolete philosophical models which however fully configure the choices of each other.
As a reminder: the determinism, materialism, realism and presentism that shape our vision of the world.
That's right, but it concerns all isms in general, which does not leave much ... see nothing more!
His philosophical conception is now wrong, it is a fact, but yet not challenged, without without questioning, I do not see how humanity could reinvent anything new in view of the cyclical trends of our behavior. ..
This is selective realism, but inapplicable in essence since all conception is first of all philosophical (and therefore cultural at the same time) by referring to a priori even pseudo-scientific (which are only materialist philosophies too) Any attempt is therefore futile on a level of a society, already that on the individual level it is not won either. See already our incompatibility on our personal isms where everyone considers these opposite isms as obsolete. Humanity did not leave the inn with that ... but does it need it elsewhere? Plurality is what avoids locking oneself into dogmas whose dangers we have seen over the centuries and which still lie in wait for us.
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by Ahmed » 30/01/16, 11:34

Determinism, materialism, realism and presentism are only the ideologically developed aspect to justify the functioning of determinisms (without naming them, of course).

Man is a religious animal, which is not so surprising since he is a gregarious animal. I am not sure that renouncing all subjectivity is possible, or even desirable. This is what the man I was alluding to wanted and whose dream would be to "evolve" the human into a machine ...
The challenge would be to succeed in "re-enchanting the world" without unfortunate drifts ... It would be necessary to succeed in enshrining subjectivity in an objective structure; this one would be only a transcription of this one.
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by sen-no-sen » 30/01/16, 12:00

Ahmed wrote:Ah! Do you mean that once and for all it would be necessary to become aware of the determinisms that are within us, in order to finally be able to take control?


It is indeed an essential prerequisite.
Our current knowledge allows us to understand a large number of processes at work and to establish reliable predictions.



I am not sure that renouncing all subjectivity is possible, or even desirable.


Warning!
There is absolutely no question of giving up subjectivity!
The human has a real need to flee from the imagination, without imagination there would be very little ... in the real world.

What I meant to say is that thought systems have only escape from survival as terminal illness. subjectivisation(making something subjective), in order to maintain the illusion as long as possible.
Subjectivism is not bad in itself, the real danger lies in the development of a operational subjectivism, ie when a subjective thought system adds the efficiency of a model which is objective to it (eg economism,exponentialism economic).

So in summary, a system of thought will necessarily (to lure the client) produce effects observable by all in order to guarantee its dissipation (eg of German national socialism and the industrialization of Germany under A. Hitler).
However, once its peak is reached, the system will have no other possibility than to lose itself in the imagination, the myth (eg Nazism).
The famous Titanic syndrome is a very colorful example of subjectivation,oxymoron politics also...

Within the framework of the theory of superorganisms, we can consider that this phase amounts to flooding the memeplex(super-set of ideas) of a large dose ofendorphin(of sum?), to put to sleep any form of efficient questioning.

Once this process is understood, it is then possible to model an objective, conscious system, whose applications are evolutionary, this is simply what the biosphere has been doing for more than 3,5 billion years.
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by sen-no-sen » 30/01/16, 12:12

Janic wrote:This seems difficult because of the very fact that subjectivity is the rule and that an objective grid would imply neutrality perfect, which humanly is a challenge. We are what our environment has formed, conditioned us (more or less accepted or rejected) and only neutral machines (and again it is we who program them) could come close.


Perfection, infinity and eternity are not of this world, let's abandon them ... because very subjective.
However, the establishment of an effective grid (it will not be perfect) is a completely achievable goal.


That's right, but it concerns all isms in general, which does not leave much ... see nothing more!


No, since ideologies and philosophical trends are mostly testable.
Ex of presentism ou only the present exists; false, the theory of general relativity demonstrates that it is a perception only personal and not universal, and that the concept of time is relative to the observer, past, present and future are actually simultaneous.


Humanity did not leave the inn with that ... but does it need it elsewhere? Plurality is what avoids locking oneself into dogmas whose dangers we have seen over the centuries and which still lie in wait for us.


You confuse ideology with facts.
The moon revolves around the earth, is this an ideology?
Human activities lead to an ecocide, is this a dogma?
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by Ahmed » 30/01/16, 14:01

I did well to ask you for explanations: thus, things are clearer for everyone.

You write:
Thus, to sum up, a system of thought will necessarily (to entice the client) produce effects that can be observed by all in order to guarantee its dissipation (eg from German national socialism and the industrialization of Germany under A. Hitler).


There is an interesting parallel to be drawn with the current period, because, in both cases, there is a simulation of production of value thanks to a future in which the present contradictions are expelled ...
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by sen-no-sen » 30/01/16, 14:22

Ahmed wrote:There is an interesting parallel to be drawn with the current period, because, in both cases, there is a simulation of production of value thanks to a future in which the present contradictions are expelled ...


Quite historically, the subjectivation process has been repeated indefinitely since the dawn of humanity ... it is therefore not at all utopian, once the mechanism identified, to avoid it by common reflection. :P

The film "the fall" retracing the last moments of A.Hitler in his bunker is a fine example of a crisis of subjectivation ...
The hope of the "return of growth" of our current leaders is also a model of its kind, growth here being considered as an entity capable of manifesting itself independently of socio-economic actions.

The tendency to operational subjectivism (i.e. the inability to differentiate between real desires and reality) results in paranoid behaviors ...
Unable to identify the source of the evils which overwhelm them, the agents maintain a confusion between symptom and cause, which has the result of increasing the anxiety-provoking behavior of said society.
This phenomenon is also noticeable nowadays, especially through the influx of migrants, to whom the only solution is to install important security devices (inoperative) and to increase socio-economic tensions.
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