BD, The ECOLOS - Tome 1

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Elec
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by Elec » 24/02/09, 16:49

menf wrote:There will be no celebrity on the cover of T.2
You have to keep in mind that this is comic strip humor, and I'm not trying to discredit ecology, quite the contrary. The characters in the comics look like me. All these little green gestures are part of my daily life. Of course, I add tons of it to make a joke, that's the point of "exercise."


OK, in my opinion the intention is noble.
I simply regret that "green" is associated with hyper-left movements on the cover (Bové destroying a corn crop). Ecology does not mean destroying the property of others, and this whether or not we are favorable to GMOs; we are in France in a free country, in democracy, where everyone can express their ideas and stand for election, not in a banana republic. And ecology does not belong to any political party.
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Re: BD, The ECOLOS - Volume 1




by Woodcutter » 24/02/09, 17:29

Elec wrote:[...]
- does the conversion yield by oleaginous plants of solar energy into biomass increase when one remains at the Pure Vegetable Oil (HVP) stage, without transformation of the oil into biodiesel by trans-esterification?
:?: :?: :?: Why would it increase?
What is interesting is that the HVP can be used in short circuit, and requires very few energy inputs compared to the recovered energy (notion of energy yield).

Elec wrote:[...] - what surface of France should one cultivate in Colza or in sunflower to replace by HVP the 50 Mtoe consumed in France in transport?
Really, you like it, you, all white or all black ... : roll:
Who said that it was necessary to "replace" the 50 Mtoe by oilseeds? The character of the menf comic?

Elec wrote:[...] - And what quantity of fresh water, fertilizers and pesticides are then necessary?
See above ...
Moreover, it seems to me that the sunflower does not need a lot of input to have an honest production.
I never saw any watered rapeseed fields afterwards.
And finally, a logical approach would encourage organic cultivation, even if the yields of seed production are less good (around 2/3 of the yields of conventional crops).
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Re: BD, The ECOLOS - Volume 1




by Elec » 24/02/09, 17:56

Woodcutter wrote:What is interesting is that the HVP can be used in short circuit, and requires only very few energy inputs compared to the recovered energy (notion of energy efficiency)


The energy balance of the HVP sector is less mediocre than that of the biodiesel sector, it is true. But we remain in very low yields, 0,2 to 0,5%.

"Agrofuels are in the lowest yield zone, they are in fact limited by the photosynthetic yield which is very low (<1%)."
(“Agrofuels and Environment” report
http://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Agr ... nement.pdf )

My opinion: having recourse to biofuels (HVP or not) is not really ecological. And using HVP on a small scale to run your car is a resourceful approach, but it has nothing to do with it. ecology The efficiency of converting solar energy into biomass is very poor, the efficiency of the heat engine where the oil is also burnt.
It is very dangerous today to make people believe that agrofuels are an ecological solution. This is what pseudo-ecologists do, either out of ignorance or for commercial reasons (farmers looking for outlets for their productions).

On the other hand, producing organic rapeseed, organic sunflower or other organic oilseeds for food (farming practices that respect the environment and health), for me, it's ecological.
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Re: BD, The ECOLOS - Volume 1




by Woodcutter » 24/02/09, 19:52

Elec wrote:[...] The energy balance of the HVP sector is less mediocre than that of the biodiesel sector, it is true. But we remain in very low yields, 0,2 to 0,5%. [...]
So what ?
It is the fact of using the HVP which does not allow to transform more than 0.5% of the light which arrives at the ground into energy which allows you to say that "Agrofuels (whatever the sector) have a disastrous environmental and health impact, and they are very expensive." :?:


Elec wrote:[...] My opinion: to have recourse to the biofuels (HVP or not) does not really have anything of ecological. And to use on a small scale with the HVP to run its car is an approach of resourcefulness, but it does not has nothing to do with ecology. [...]
Ah good ... And what is ecology for Professor Elec?

Once again, you have a far too binary vision of things (where does that come from?) ...

Ecology first of all, if we refer to semantics, it is science which studies the interactions between living beings.
Then, in the sense in which it is currently understood, ie "have a behavior as a human being that has the least possible impact on the environment that allows this species to envisage a future that is not too complicated", I do not see why all the gestures would not be good to take!
Where do you get that an effort is not interesting in the overall balance if it is not applicable to all?
How can you say that using a fuel locally that greatly limits CO2 emissions is not a gesture that reduces the impact of our activities on the environment?




Elec wrote:[The efficiency of converting solar energy into biomass is very poor, the efficiency of the heat engine where the oil is also burnt etc.
It is very dangerous today to make people believe that agrofuels are an ecological solution. This is what pseudo-ecologists do, either out of ignorance or for commercial reasons (farmers looking for outlets for their productions).
Let's get on well: I have nothing against the electric car, I am even very favorable to it, especially in its series hybrid version!

But it is not because you have blinders which allow you to see only one solution, that it is indeed the only one worthy of interest!

Certain agrofuels made from corn or wheat in particular, or the oil palm from Indonesia are indeed a heresy, but that does not mean that the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater!

Recovering part of the solar energy and turning the Carbon on a short cycle through the photosynthesis of plants constitutes one of the solutions to the necessary energy consumption of human societies.
It is not the only one, it is perhaps not the one which presents the best overall environmental record but in any case, it has the merit of existing today and of not requiring waiting for "new technologies" to be able to be used now, for a small part of the overall energy mix.
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by Elec » 24/02/09, 19:55

Answer here:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/agro-bioca ... t6888.html

(if you could focus on the debate of ideas instead of attacking people, you would waste your time less: I really don't care about your moods about me; I don't care. '' only interested in well-argued, coherent ideas and reflections rich in serious references)
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by Woodcutter » 24/02/09, 20:27

Here, a rugby player ...
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by gegyx » 24/02/09, 21:04

Elec wrote: (if you could focus on the debate of ideas instead of attacking people, you would waste your time less: I really don't care about your moods about me; I don't care. '' only interested in well-argued, coherent ideas and reflections rich in serious references)

This is why I do not understand your terror in front of José Bové, and his fight, and that you attack him so crudely with worn out quibbles.

Although I have my own idea: he supported the Palestinian people in the face of Israeli spraying.
And there, it must be serious in your little head in the sun of Guadalajara.

Woodcutter/ Please, don't insult the rugby players ...

: Mrgreen:
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by Elec » 24/02/09, 21:06

I never attacked the person José Bové. His private life does not interest me, however the ideas he defends and publicly exposes interest me. This is what I am talking about.

I am talking about his ideas, his project, his political movement which is for me deeply anti-liberal.

On the other hand, you directly target my person by writing "your little face in the sun". It's a lousy method.
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by Woodcutter » 24/02/09, 21:19

Elec wrote:Answer here:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/agro-bioca ... t6888.html

(if you could focus on the debate of ideas instead of attacking people, you would waste your time less: I really don't care about your moods about me; I don't care. '' only interested in well-argued, coherent ideas and reflections rich in serious references)
Because you sincerely think that this long monologue of yourself, which does not suffer any dispute whatsoever throughout 9 long pages, is a debate of ideas ? : Shock: :?:

Maybe you should see again ta concept of debate ... : roll:


Going back to the starting point, is it me who blames the people in this reflection:
Elec wrote:
menf wrote: Image


Hmm ... Presenting rapeseed oil-based agrofuels as "good for the environment" and "good for the wallet", you really have to dare! Agrofuels (whatever the sector) have a disastrous environmental and health impact, and they are very expensive. A person who seeks to preserve the environment and health (and that we can qualify as "green" even if the word is reductive and has taken on a particular connotation in France) of course does not use agrofuels and does not use an engine having 20% ​​of output in cycle of ordinary use [...]


(without counting that on the one hand, the basis of the reflection is false, and that on the other hand, it is an abusive generalization ...)
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by Woodcutter » 24/02/09, 21:20

gegyx wrote:[...]
Woodcutter/ Please, don't insult the rugby players ...

: Mrgreen:
No insults, I was just in awe of the initial technical gesture (since it was modified later ...)
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