Solar photovoltaic: integrated PV but why?

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Solar photovoltaic: integrated PV but why?




by Christophe » 05/08/09, 11:24

France has decided to better subsidize integrated photovoltaic projects.

I wonder pkoi such a measure because the integrated PV seems to me to pose only disadvantages and except in new construction, it represents a significant additional cost ...

Disadvantages of integrated PV:

a) extra cost during renovation: we break a waterproof roof to put panels whose life is, as we know, limited and which in 20 to 30 will be deleted (keep your tiles guys !!)

b) risk of leakage

c) additional cost of sealing under the panel

d) lack of ventilation therefore greater overheating and lower performance (a panel loses 0.4 to 0.5% of its power per ° C compared to its NOCT point (Normal Operating Condition and Temp) and it is not uncommon for a poorly ventilated panel rises to 70-80 ° C ... see more ...

Here is an extract from a datasheet of a Solar Fabrik panel:

Image

It therefore loses 0.47% of power per ° C above 45 ° C, so if it rises to 90 ° C, it loses 21% of its "nominal" power! 21% that weighs heavily any calculation of profitability !!

You will find, for comparison, other datasheets here: https://www.econologie.com/energie-solai ... -3914.html

Advantages of integrated PV, I only see 2 at the moment:

a) the "look" (hum hum!)
b) the incentive to integrate PV in new construction

The integration of PV is a Franco-French specificity, to my knowledge, no other country in Europe "asks" for integration ... as France does.

Because in the end what matters? That we do the most "green" kWh for the lowest possible cost, right? The integration does not go in this direction ... in my opinion ... (it would be interesting to calculate the gray energy of the same surface in integrated and not integrated) ...
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by Former Oceano » 05/08/09, 12:09

In summer it is better not to have integrated PV because the INSOL which is in the shade corresponds to the tiles and therefore the roof heats up less. In addition, natural ventilation will be created in the space between the PV and the tiles, thereby cooling the roof.

In fact if we do integrated PV it is surely to make more high tech ...
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by Christophe » 05/08/09, 12:14

former oceanic wrote:In fact if we do integrated PV it is surely to make more high tech ...


I would have another hypothesis but we will still call me paranoid ... : Cheesy:
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by elephant » 05/08/09, 12:15

It must be said that indeed, the French town planning rules are much more severe than elsewhere, probably because of the tourist vocation of the country (1st or 2nd industry in France, I think)

Your calculation of 21% seems exaggerated to me: the temperature difference of an integrated panel compared to an added panel is 10 to 20 °, therefore 5 to 10% less relative efficiency.

What scares me the most in the integrated is this: what guarantee do we have to find a replacement panel of the same appearance and the same size in 10 years?

That said, there are "roofing elements" panels (these panels have no frame and have a fixing comparable to that of slates) and solar tiles and slates.
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by Christophe » 05/08/09, 12:23

elephant wrote:Your calculation of 21% seems exaggerated to me: the temperature difference of an integrated panel compared to an added panel is 10 to 20 °, therefore 5 to 10% less relative efficiency.


We would have to measure how much one or the other rises ... if there is only a 10 ° C to 20 ° C difference between a "ventilated" panel and one not ventilated, can we really consider the ventilated one as ventilated?

elephant wrote:What scares me the most in the integrated is this: what guarantee do we have to find a replacement panel of the same appearance and the same size in 10 years?


Yes ... and what a cost to ... put the tiles back.

If there is something that annoys me particularly, it is to do to undo later ...

elephant wrote:That said, there are "roofing elements" panels (these panels have no frame and have a fixing comparable to that of slates) and solar tiles and slates.


Yes at the look level it is the "top" but difficult to integrate in the non-new at a "reasonable" cost ... it looks like slates ... but knowing the surface temperature of the slates at sun I doubt that such a system that they only rise from 10 to 20 ° ...

Do not confuse beautiful and good, it is well known! : Cheesy:

ps: we can very well do the non-integrated in France, but with less attractive financial conditions ... so it is not linked to urban planning rules ... I think ...
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by Soreo » 05/08/09, 13:22

Hello everybody


I think that the integrated has two main advantages:

- aesthetics: with the boom in solar energy, many panels will arrive on the roofs of our neighbors and the integrated allows to "regulate the installation of these", imagining an extreme case without integrated we could arrive at an anarchy of poses of PV modules and thus a disfigurement of the French landscape (I am exaggerating intentionally).

- the integrated allows IMHO to separate the real professionals from PV and the others, an integrated installation induced to remove the tiles (or other) to install the appropriate bin and to perform a waterproof installation for the next decades.

The integrated for me almost serves as a filter in the PV market by imposing limits and rules in this sector which is still quite young.


Hoping that my answers will not have passed me off as an integrist of the integrated, I am just trying to find good sides at the choice of the State.


See you soon

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by Former Oceano » 05/08/09, 13:24

Disfigure? Too late !
You just have to see the multiple dishes on the roofs and balconies ...
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by Soreo » 05/08/09, 13:32

Yes, I totally agree, but it may be better to try to control visual pollution right now (something that was not done with satellite dishes / antennas).

If integration does not amplify this phenomenon it can be a good thing I think.

After once again I am not pro integrated but the PV being directly related to the will of the State I think that it is necessary to see the glass of water half full rather than half empty.

I wish you all a happy day.

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by Christophe » 05/08/09, 14:07

Soreo wrote:I think that the integrated has two main advantages:

- aesthetics: with the boom in solar energy, many panels will arrive on the roofs of our neighbors and the integrated allows to "regulate the installation of these", imagining an extreme case without integrated we could arrive at an anarchy of poses of PV modules and thus a disfigurement of the French landscape (I am exaggerating intentionally).


So we want to SAVE the planet or REGULATE the installations? Should know ... in Germany, I do not believe that it is "anarchy" that you announce if?

Soreo wrote:- the integrated allows IMHO to separate the real professionals from PV and the others, an integrated installation induced to remove the tiles (or other) to install the appropriate bin and to perform a waterproof installation for the next decades.


So, to be a "real pro" you have to at least be a roofer and power electrician?

Soreo wrote:Hoping that my answers will not have passed me off as an integrist of the integrated, I am just trying to find good sides at the choice of the State.


I don't find one ... at least not for econology ... the French landscape, Edf has gunned it down for a long time with its overhead power lines from THT ...

By the way, you who is pro, what is the OVERALL cost of an integrated system on tile or slate? Let's say m² for 20 m²?
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by Soreo » 05/08/09, 15:50

Hello again,

concerning the implementation of "regulation of installations" I do not see how to save the planet and try to do it with certain rules is contradictory.

Germany when it is a "green" country with a real ecological power for several decades, France when it slowly begins its process of econology.

In Germany one house in four is already equipped with photovoltaic panels, in France Pv installations represent a few thousand cases.

In addition I enlarged the line by speaking of anarchy but I remain convinced that the middle of the pv must remain well framed.

yes to be a pro you must be a roofer and power electrician but also carry out several special internships dedicated to pv.
I did not want to draw your wrath by saying this but only to remind that this sector is quite young and represents a significant financial windfall hence the risk of seeing unscrupulous companies appearing come to make a fortune and leaving the customer with very equipment medium and zero service.

the additional cost of the integrated system per m2 for 20m2 is about 10% of the total price (material + installation) count 1000 euros more for the material and 400 euros more for the installation for an installation at 14000 euros (2kwc).

Hoping that this message does not catch your thunder yet.

I wish you a nice afternoon

In Lille it's gray :(

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