Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?

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Christophe
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by Christophe » 29/08/22, 13:13

This document is interesting but does not answer the question since it essentially concerns, if I understood correctly, the balancing of the network (and excuse me but I have absolutely nothing to give a shit about my imbalance production / consumption*, all I want is to be able to use my PV production in the event of a blackout...instead of installing a generator!).

If I simulate a network in blackout it means that it no longer exists, so its imbalance either (well, maybe, but not my fault : Mrgreen: !)! : Mrgreen:

* all the more so since the prosumer tax and even more when they grease themselves like p... as currently at 800 €/MWh!!
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by sicetaitsimple » 29/08/22, 13:29

Christophe wrote: all I want is to be able to use my PV production in the event of a blackout...instead of installing a generator!).


Sorry if that doesn't help you.
That said, I'm not going to hold it for you to piss either, you know like me forums specialized in PV which must be full of subjects relating to this mode of operation, takachercher.
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by Christophe » 29/08/22, 13:34

Oh, you don't know how to hold heavy tools? : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by dede2002 » 29/08/22, 17:36

Hello,

An idea would be to put a small generator to clock and start your network inverter, the frequency must not exceed 50.2 Hz otherwise your inverter will cut.

With a small inverter I don't know what will happen, it will depend on the intensity it will provide, if it's too much it will cut, if it's negative...?
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by Forhorse » 29/08/22, 18:45

it can work on the condition that you consume exactly what the installation produces.
To "inject" the PV inverters produce a current with a slight phase shift in advance.
If you consume less, both the frequency and the voltage will go up, and the anti-islanding protections will do their job.
If you consume more, well the same in fact...
And it is still necessary to find an inverter simulating the network which is not too fussy about what happens at its output.

In short, it is technically possible... in reality it is much less so.

As for hybrid inverters that allow you to do what you want, there is of course Victron which is a reference, but other brands offer more or less equivalent systems.
(I know that Fronius with its GEN24 inverters can do this for example)
It's more expensive, but it will be simpler and more reliable than a dark hack from the bottom of the garage (although I have no doubt that a motivated person can do it)
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 29/08/22, 18:54

How do those who have an autonomous and/or isolated house without being connected to the ERDF network do?
https://www.sma.de/fr/residentiel/deven ... ie-solaire
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by sicetaitsimple » 29/08/22, 19:20

Christophe wrote:Oh, you don't know how to hold heavy tools? : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:


Come on, I'm too good....But in fact I'm interested in knowing the end of the story. So a rather long excerpt from:
https://forum-photovoltaique.fr/viewtop ... 0&start=60


Quote: My question is to know how the "pure sinus" inverter will behave as soon as it receives on its output, 230V from the PV inverter, here is my question, it is clear and clear.


but anyway, why would you want things to behave otherwise than as they should behave? things will behave electrically normally, nothing else!

Let's take the explanation again:

1) isolate yourself from the network by locking the network circuit breaker in the open position.
2) cut off all feeders at the distribution board
3) connect the "pure sine" inverter to a dedicated feeder in the distribution board.
4) reasonably load the inverter by closing one or more feeders in the distribution board
5) connect the PV plant to the distribution board

what happens at this moment since obviously this is where you stumble?
well the PV inverter will see a network and it will simply analyze it to see if it corresponds to the programmed specifications.
If so, the PV inverter will charge to the internal grid.
How many ?
well simply what the network will ask him without however being able to exceed what he is capable of producing of course!

On the other hand, here, it is important to understand that everything is only a question of balance! if the load on the internal network is 2KVA, the "pure sine" inverter can output 1,5 KVA and suddenly a "con" of pigeon comes to hide one of the cells of the installation which causes the PV production to plunge at zero ... the "pure sine" inverter will say shit when the power is exceeded and everything goes black!

And that's where we measure the reality of things! for an "ideal" system, it is desirable to have a "pure sinus" capable of ensuring the power demand that can be made on the internal network, the PV giving what it can when it can. And what it will give will be what will not be given by the "pure sine"!

We realize that an energy strategy is necessary in this type of situation.
What are the vital needs?
What are we going to define as "vital"?
What are we ready to put as an investment?
Is this investment compatible with the "vital" needs that we have set ourselves?

One case is not the other! a house isolated from everything does not have the same needs and is not connected to a network comparable to that which supplies a house in the city center. The "needs" of one are not the same as those of another.

In short, anything is possible! it's all about knowing what you want exactly and the means you want to put into it. The rest is just simple electrical application.


So of course without any guarantee on what is said, but at least nothing shocks me.
Note confirmation of Forhorse's remark concerning the quasi-necessity of having two inverters of approximately the same power.
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dede2002
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by dede2002 » 29/08/22, 19:32

GuyGadeboisLeRetour wrote:How do those who have an autonomous and/or isolated house without being connected to the ERDF network do?
https://www.sma.de/fr/residentiel/deven ... ie-solaire


Precisely, they do not have a network inverter like Christophe!

the difference between a generator and a battery inverter is that a generator turns into a motor, but an inverter does not turn into a charger.

With a "supernumerary" DIY (an electric motor that drives a generator) regulated in speed, with a good flywheel, it should work...
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by sicetaitsimple » 29/08/22, 19:44

dede2002 wrote:
GuyGadeboisLeRetour wrote:How do those who have an autonomous and/or isolated house without being connected to the ERDF network do?
https://www.sma.de/fr/residentiel/deven ... ie-solaire


Precisely, they do not have a network inverter like Christophe!


And they need some serious battery packs if they want to do anything other than just light up!
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Re: Solar inverter on generator or on battery inverter?




by sicetaitsimple » 29/08/22, 20:01

sicetaitsimple wrote:Come on, I'm too good....But in fact I'm interested in knowing the end of the story. So a rather long excerpt from:
https://forum-photovoltaique.fr/viewtop ... 0&start=60


Complement after reflection: insofar as (if this is correct...) the "pure sine" inverter must remain sufficiently "throughput" to remain permanently a "quasi network reference" for the PV inverter, that means that it will be necessary to quickly recharge the battery(ies) that supply it! By the PV inverter?
In short, it's starting to bite its tail a little...
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